Summer and winter car tyres

[Michael Hodgson]

My parents lived for 3 years in Kiruna, northern Sweden, north of the Arctic Circle (-40 degrees in winter) in the 1970s.

They did the same as the locals - everybody has a spare set of wheels in the garage, one set with studded tyres for use in the winter, another with ordinary tyres for use in summer and simply switch them round twice a year.

 

The first year that I visited it was October and I tried to get snow chains before I left.  Nobody had any - it's not the season for them.  So I though I'd get them in Sweden.  No way - we don't use them - what you need is proper studded tyres!  I drove all the 1100 miles north in pouring rain, no problem.  The following day the snow arrived and set in for the winter.  For a couple of days the locals were skidding about on their summer tyres, but then they had all changed over.  This made my journey back a little difficult.  I had no trouble keeping the car on the road, as other traffic had cut tramlines into the snow, but my brakes were ineffective - I had to slow down well in advance of all junctions etc.  Once I had dropped to sea level at Luleå the rest of the journey was easy.

 

Swedish law required the use of winter tyres in the season and banned studded tyres in the south when they would do damage to the road, although it depended on the address at which the car was registered.  No doubt the rules will have changed in the intervening decades.

 

 

[tomparryharry]

5 minutes ago, 21C1 said:

I believe that there is an issue with insurers in UK with winter tyres.  You must inform them if you have them fitted as it is classed as a modification to the standard spec and "could" affect any claim. 

 

Quite right, any modification to a vehicle should be notifiable to the insurers. We used to make (Ford) Sierra & Orion alloy pepper-pot wheels. They were virtually identical; only the wheel offsets made a difference.  One boy racer fitted Sierra wheels to his Fiesta, and, guess what?..... He stuffed it. The insurance assessor spotted the difference, and nullified the claim, due to non-standard wheels on the vehicle.  We engraved a large 'O' & 'S' on the tool dies to ensure that the right wheels went to the right cars. 

 

Tyres are not 'normally' affected by changing tyre type, as long as they conform to the relevant BS or motoring standard.  Testing a wheel involves fitting a tyre to the proper recommended pressure, and firing said complete wheel into a thick steel plate (which was if I remember 200mm ) at about 70 MPH.  The wheel was then taken down,    examined & measured, both on a CMM, and then dye-penned and X-rayed.  If a tyre has a direction arrow, they should always be fitted with the arrow to its direction: Incorrect fitting might well nullify your insurance.

 

True story time. Our test people had about 70-80 test tyres, all used for firing the wheels & tyres into the steel wall. After a while, these tyres would be  scrapped off.  One weekend, some enterprising 'people' broke in, and stole all the tyres. Oh dear!  As our test engineer said "Wait for the crash", and I think he was proved right, with at least one going up a lamp-post in Cardiff. 

 

It's 20-odd years since I worked there, so standards & test methods have probably changed.

[tomparryharry]

1 hour ago, alastairq said:

 

 

Land Rovers are definitely not the be-all-&-end-all of winter driving. The old ones definitely didn't have enough bhp to  get into trouble, but any 4wd on ice will suffer from 4 wheel spin. [They were part of my last job for 20 years...but only part!]

 

 

On a light-hearted note, try reversing. If you've got free-wheeling hubs, disconnect them.  I did have to do that once or twice, when granny was a little girl..... It's a bit counter-intuitive, but I seem to remember it worked. A lot of people 'give it the beans' which is both useless & dangerous. 

 

Firestones also made T&C tyres.  

[MPR]

41 minutes ago, 21C1 said:

I believe that there is an issue with insurers in UK with winter tyres.  You must inform them if you have them fitted as it is classed as a modification to the standard spec and "could" affect any claim. 

 

I remember this issue being discussed in the news a couple of years ago, which resulted in some insurers revisiting their position on this issue - I found this document from Jan 2019 on the ABI website describing the commitment made by a number of providers at that time: https://www.abi.org.uk/globalassets/files/publications/public/motor/2019/abi-guide-to-winter-driving---the-motor-insurance-commitment.pdf

That said: I would still be sure to contact my insurer to be sure that the position has not changed since then if you are planning fit winter tyres

[TheQ]

The car Just normal road summer tyres all year round.. don't drive it in the snow.. they don't clear our road.. if it snows more than a couple of inches you won't be getting out because of the drifts..

 

The land Rover 110 , AT tyres  mud and snow all year round... don't drive it stupid enough to worry about less grip in the summer..

The Landy tyres

[admiles]

1 hour ago, 21C1 said:

I believe that there is an issue with insurers in UK with winter tyres.  You must inform them if you have them fitted as it is classed as a modification to the standard spec and "could" affect any claim. 

 

 

Urban Myth I'm afraid.  I've been using winter tyres on my cars for 25 years + and always tell my insurers when I switch. Never once have they been interested.  As long as the tyre is suitable for road use and has legal tread depth they're fine.

 

Having a rear wheel drive car I'd never run it in the winter without winter tyres, even in Suffolk.

The difference is night and day. The last time we had some decent snow I towed my neighbours Range Rover (on summer tyres) to the nearest clear bit of road as he was going nowhere fast.

 

I've also merrily skipped past 20 miles of queuing traffic on the A14 all stuck slithering about in the left hand lane while I used the right hand lane through a good 6-8 inches of virgin snow that no one else seemed to want to use.  The biggest issue then is not lack of traction but lack of ground clearance!  I really couldn't get it stuck if I tried. 

 

My partner also runs winter tyres on her Mini Clubman and is a convert too. We just bought a set of secondhand alloy wheels for each car to fit them too. Cheap and doesn't matter if the salt attacks them.

[jpendle]

The only problem I ever had with winter tyres, or maybe it was with summer tyres, was after a business trip to Sweden.

 

It was in January or February and I was driving around in a rental car that had winter tyres on snow packed roads for a week.

 

I flew home to Manchester and we'd had a bit of snow. I got into my car in the multi-story and merrily drove onto the exit ramp at a reasonable speed for snowy roads.

 

Except I was still thinking reasonable in a Swedish rental with winter tyres.

 

A couple of very nervous seconds as my car skidded towards the concrete wall where the ramp curved 

 

John P

Edited September 8, 2021 by jpendle
Spelling

[Quarryscapes]

For most of the UK, Just buy Uniroyal Rainsports for all year use. 

 

Ironically I've found that cheap nasty hard summer tyres are usually quite good in snow. Surprised many a 4x4 owner in the severe snows of 2010 zipping about in a lowered Civic coupe on large alloys with Nankangs or Wanlis (can't remember which), the front splitter acting as a snow plough. 

 

My current C30 arrived from Bradford with Winter tyres. I got it in March and did have occasion to use it on snow. Didn't feel any better for them but it might be better during a proper winter, so I've kept them should the need arise. Now running Michelin Primacy 4s as they were a good price (which have been good so far, although I'd still prefer Rainsports or Pilot 4s)

[Monkersson]

6 hours ago, Quarryscapes said:

Ironically I've found that cheap nasty hard summer tyres are usually quite good in snow. Surprised many a 4x4 owner in the severe snows of 2010 zipping about in a lowered Civic coupe on large alloys with Nankangs or Wanlis (can't remember which), the front splitter acting as a snow plough. 

 

Many moons ago I had a Nissan Sunny (G plate) that I ran on a shoestring (a threadbare one at that).  Cheapest remoulds were all I could afford, yet this car was the most competent car I've ever had when it came to driving in the snow, including a 4-wheel drive Audi

[StuAllen]

I used to have a 5 series BMW, I was paranoid about getting stuck in bad weather so invested in a set of winter tyres for it. They do make a difference and it’s not just snow, anything below 5 degrees c and i could notice the difference compared to the summer tyres it just felt grippier. What persuaded was talking to one of my customers- he was starting an online tyre company, he showed me a video of a 5 series on winter tyres vs a Range Rover on summer tyre going up a snow covered hill, the Range Rover didn’t make it the BMW did. There’s a similar example here :

I didn’t bother with my next car - Mercedes CLS, I  kept the summer tyres all year round, these though were the first tyres I’ve ever had where they needed a mile or so to warm up in cold weather, had to be very careful with the throttle until the tyres were warm, very tail happy. 
 

 

[doilum]

I once asked an ex traffic policeman regarding winter tyres on their 5 series patrol cars. They used the OE tyre all year round but had the advantage of 200kg of kit in the back. From my earliest days I learned that two or three sacks of sand over the rear axle and around 8 or 10 psi less in the tyres would get you home. Doesn't work so well if you have a modern FWD with fat alloy wheels..........

Edited September 10, 2021 by doilum

[Guest]

Just now, doilum said:

From my earliest days I learned that two or three sacks of sand over the rear axle and around 8 or 10 psi less in the tyres would get you home. Doesn't work so well if you have a modern FWD with fat alloy wheels..........

 

A pair of snow socks are easier to carry around.

Just don't try to buy them after the first snow of the year.

[alastairq]

I believe [kills pain?] there used to be a spray that one could, erm, spray{?} onto one's appropriate tyres to enhance grip in snow?

I recall many years ago attending a race meeting at Donnington.

A chum was racing his single seat Pre-wawer MG...[or rather, his wife was]....and he had fitted proper racing tyres [which weren't wide like modern stuffs]....They tyres had received some treatment [and heat, no doubt].... and when ready to use, placing my hand on the tread, I could feel the stickiness trying to pull my skin orff...

 

Now, ice, is something else entirely.  I prefer to ride on snow!   

The biggest boon when considering snow [or indeed, off-road at all] isn't how many, or which, wheels are driven.....but, [as has been said above], ground clearance.

Once one runs out of ground clearance [even a Land Rover doesn't actually have all that much......one can bring a land rover to a halt with a small hole. Crossing a rutted track,  incorrectly, for example?], once the suspension, or axle, of whatever, digs in, progress ceases.

 Cars of old [Ford Pops, for example or pre-wawer motors...or SAAB 96s]...with their spindly wheels, were competent on non-tarmac surfaces simply because they had decent ground clearance.

 

I found the biggest help when confronted with snow drifts was, not forgetting to put one's big shovel in the boot!

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, alastairq said:

I found the biggest help when confronted with snow drifts was, not forgetting to put one's big shovel in the boot!

 

I bought a cute little shovel off eBay for the car.

Turns out it's a Soviet MPL-50 which has all sorts of other uses in the hands of the Spetsnaz.

[stewartingram]

Back in my 1st car - Austin A30 (which later morphed into an A35 through replacement parts) - I NEVER got stuck anywhere, snow/mud etc. I still would rather drive that car today, though I've progressed to a 'modern' Rover 75.

I had radial tyres. rear wheel drive on the Austin. If wheel grip became a problem, applying the handbrake helped. You can't do that in a FWD car!. As an aside, I also had an external sunshade over the windscreen (optional extra in the 50s). In the heaviest rain or snow I rarely needed the wipers on.

Modern cars are not an improvement - built for style not usefulness.

 

Stewart

[admiles]

17 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

Back in my 1st car - Austin A30 (which later morphed into an A35 through replacement parts) - I NEVER got stuck anywhere, snow/mud etc. I still would rather drive that car today, though I've progressed to a 'modern' Rover 75.

I had radial tyres. rear wheel drive on the Austin. If wheel grip became a problem, applying the handbrake helped. You can't do that in a FWD car!. As an aside, I also had an external sunshade over the windscreen (optional extra in the 50s). In the heaviest rain or snow I rarely needed the wipers on.

Modern cars are not an improvement - built for style not usefulness.

 

Stewart

 

I think on balance I'd still take modern fuel injection, heating and heated seats!

[Kickstart]

On 07/09/2021 at 23:43, pH said:

Here in BC, we don’t get the option of not using tires marked with the appropriate ‘mountain and snowflake’ symbols anywhere in BC in winter, other than on a few highways in the southwest of the province:

 

 

So that is what M+S stands for! Always known it by the more colloqial 'Mud and S****'

 

All the best

 

Katy

[Reorte]

37 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

Modern cars are not an improvement - built for style not usefulness.

 

Seems the other way around most of the time. They're all bland plastic-looking lumps with less character than a turnip, oversized, out of place monstrosities, but they usually drive well enough and don't break down as often (despite being over-complicated) or turn into a pile of rust and holes after a few months.

[pH]

9 minutes ago, Kickstart said:

 

So that is what M+S stands for! Always known it by the more colloqial 'Mud and S****'

 

All the best

 

Katy

No, “mountain and snowflake” is different from “M+S”. The difference is explained on this site:

 

https://www.kaltire.com/en/what-does-the-mountain-snowflake-symbol-on-winter-tires-mean.html

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Kickstart said:

 

So that is what M+S stands for! Always known it by the more colloqial 'Mud and S****'

 

It's Mud & Snow. But unless it also has the mountain mark it's not actually a winter tyre, just one with a chunky tread.

The mountain mark means it works well in low temperatures.

[AndrueC]

On 08/09/2021 at 07:37, Suzie said:

Just use good summer tyres all year round, and stay at home when there is snow packed on to the road (about two days a year on average!) Look at the tests for Goodyear Eagle F1 summer tyres and you will see that they outperform most (if not all) winter tyres in typical southern UK winter conditions.

Several years ago when I considered going for an advanced driving test I asked my local IAM club why they didn't offer skid pan training. Their response was 'Advanced drivers stay at home when it's icy'

[alastairq]

41 minutes ago, Kickstart said:

 

So that is what M+S stands for! Always known it by the more colloqial 'Mud and S****'

 

All the best

 

Katy

  I understood the M&S marking [from my trialling antics] to be a symbol required by certain European countries to denote a 'winter' tyre? [Whether or not theat is a reality, isn't the issue]

As for lumpy treads? I've got all sorts, including Michelin Taxi tyres, all have M&S on them, especially my ultra-cheap Chinese ditch-finders I use on my daily. [Never having had them find me a ditch, ever.]

BTW, I have a cheapo daily because my insurance [classik insurance] for my oldies requires me to have an insured daily driver too.  Plus, my son [dads taxi syndrome] isn't happy with all the attention folk seem to want to give to my oldies..he prefers to keep a low profile thanks! So I ''need' a cheapo daily [none of my oldies are in any way unreliable]....whether I like moderns or not.

Edited September 10, 2021 by alastairq

[Izzy]

The first car my wife had, and continued to use for a while after we got married was a A30, which we called with great affection ‘Jalopy’. This was in 1973. In very cold/snowy weather she always remembers it stopping and getting out and rubbing the carburettor vigorously to get the fuel to keep flowing! Never let us down though and when we gave it to my sister she thought it wonderful. Banging the door pillar to get the signal arm to pop up/out and the windscreen wipers running out of puff! Those were the days…..    Still see the odd A30/35 about now and then.

 

Our son had his eyes opened when he first went to work in Switzerland in the early 1990’s. I believe as on several other EU countries summer & winter tyres are mandatory and the difference when trying to use the wrong ones for the time of year was ‘interesting’. Summer ones in winter being like on a skid pan. He discovered this when he bought a Mazda RX7 that didn’t come with winter ones……Problem with having two sets is the extra cost of not just the tyres but wheels as well, and the space to be found for the spare ones…….

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Izzy said:

Problem with having two sets is the extra cost of not just the tyres but wheels as well, and the space to be found for the spare ones…….

 

Tyre hotels are a thing in those countries.

[Wheatley]

I had winter / mud & snow tyres fitted to a works van because somebody (in Leeds) decided that as I was based in Cumbria I would need them. They were great in frost / slush /light snow, and also quite useful on wet grass and light mud.

 

They weren't good enough to stop me having to fork out £20 for a tow  to the farmer whose field I got it stuck in trying to drive across it after three days of rain. When it wasn't snowing/frosty/muddy, which was most of the time (even in Cumbria), they made handling more interesting than it needed to be as there was less rubber in contact with the road. As I was a young 20-something in someone else's vehicle this wasn't a good combination. On the M6 they were a damn nuisance because the added road noise meant the wireless was turned up so high I was deaf by the end of the shift. 

Edited September 10, 2021 by Wheatley