Trains without brake vans.

[Mark Saunders]

Vacuum pipes when connected and pins used had to have the pis removed or the castings on the pipe broke!

 

York Up Yard still has one in the undergrowth!

[Aire Head]

Are we able to clarify if a fully fitted goods train running with a piped Brakevan required side lamps pre 1969?

 

[LMS2968]

It did.

[LMS2968]

[LMS2968]

2 hours ago, Mark Saunders said:

Vacuum pipes when connected and pins used had to have the pis removed or the castings on the pipe broke!

 

York Up Yard still has one in the undergrowth!

Yes, I thought something was wrong, but as said, it was over 45 years ago. I doubt I could pull the pins out with the pole, but never tried.

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

Yes, getting mixed up with steam heat bags. It was over 45 years ago!

It definitely paid not to get vac and steam bags mixed up     Steam bags definitely required considerable care and making sure you split them in the correct order - and that was 40 years ago in my case.   I must admit to getting in something of a dilemma on one occasion when coupling a dual brake vehicle to a dual brake loco and seriously wondering what on earth was required to be coupled until I'd checked the next couple of vehicles - I blame on getting a bit tired after having spent very near 12 hours hanging engines on and off trains in less than wonderful working conditions.

[BR traction instructor]

Another situation where unfitted/partially fitted freights (loaded mineral opens) were authorised to run without a brakevan included a local colliery (possibly Woolley on the Barnsley line) to Healey Mills marshalling yard. It was downhill all the way and I think track circuited throughout. Yard staff obviously had to advise the signaller that the train had arrived complete with tail lamp to confirm that the entire consist was safely inside.

 

BeRTIe

Edited January 27, 2022 by BR traction instructor

[Mark Saunders]

5 hours ago, BR traction instructor said:

Another situation where unfitted/partially fitted freights (loaded mineral opens) were authorised to run without a brakevan included a local colliery (possibly Woolley on the Barnsley line) to Healey Mills marshalling yard. It was downhill all the way and I think track circuited throughout. Yard staff obviously had to advise the signaller that the train had arrived complete with tail lamp to confirm that the entire consist was safely inside.

 

BeRTIe

More likely the gradient being the major factor as recently trains arriving in Ferryhill yard from Stillington had to report in the yard complete but not from the main line!

[BR traction instructor]

I have the instruction/authority somewhere Mark but can’t put my hands on the right publication.

Edited January 27, 2022 by BR traction instructor

[Mophead45143]

On 27/01/2022 at 00:53, The Johnster said:

By and large, yes, and increasingly along the timeline, but there was still the NCL network of goods depots, which generated class 6 trains of traditional vacuum braked general merchandise freight in 12ton vans, BD or AF containers on conflats, and 5-plank sheeted opens.  And you didn’t have to look far to find other vac braked class 6 traffic; cement in presflos or bagged in 12ton vans, block train 45ton 4-wheeled 60mph oil/petrol tanks, block 50mph ‘Pipe’ dropside opens Canton Sidings/Lawrence Hill-Calvert for London Brick, block wooden bodied medfits of salt for winter road gritting each autumn, and that’s just in my bottom goods guard link at Canton.  
 

The china clay vacuum hoods were still running, there were block vacuum trains of dogfish for ballast laying, and no doubt plenty of other examples of block vacuum traffic.  All the class 7 and 8 part fitted traffic had vacuum heads; TTBOMK there was no such thing as a part fitted train with an air braked head, though I cannot see any reason to not do it beyond that the traffic never required it.  Faced with such a situation I’d have got on with it assuming that we were within load for the loco on that route and had sufficient brake force for the class of train. 
 

 

 

 

Oh absolutely, among the freights I plan to run on my layout there will be some fully fitted vacuum brake freights, such as a rake of Presflo's for the Hope cement workings, bogie bolsters (BEV/BCV) for the Scunthorpe - ADJ, and a rake of Mermaid/Dogfish/Catfish/Sealion for the ballast from Loughbrough. 

 

Cameron

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, BR traction instructor said:

Another situation where unfitted/partially fitted freights (loaded mineral opens) were authorised to run without a brakevan included a local colliery (possibly Woolley on the Barnsley line) to Healey Mills marshalling yard. It was downhill all the way and I think track circuited throughout. Yard staff obviously had to advise the signaller that the train had arrived complete with tail lamp to confirm that the entire consist was safely inside.

 

BeRTIe

There were a number of movements in the Healey Mills area where Class 9 were permitted to run on run ning lines without brakevans - as a past colleague of mine found out rather to his surprise when he took over an Asst Area Manager's job there.

[BR traction instructor]

Former BR employees readily accept that locally specific operating practices were commonplace around the network but it requires access to/familiarity with era specific, appropriate publications to unravel/provide evidence for what was authorised and when. It is easy and a common misconception for non BR folk to assume that a specific local practice such as the above happened everywhere, throughout BR history.

 

BeRTIe

Edited January 28, 2022 by BR traction instructor

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, BR traction instructor said:

Former BR employees readily accept that locally specific operating practices were commonplace around the network but it requires access to/familiarity with era specific, appropriate publications to unravel/provide evidence for what was authorised and when. It is easy and a common misconception for non BR folk to assume that a specific local practice such as the above happened everywhere, throughout BR history.

 

BeRTIe

And it also requires - as I've said and explained previously on RMweb - an understanding of how the hierarchy of operational documents worked/works.  And, perhaps even more importantly,  some understanding of when various sorts of information (e.g, using one particularly complex example - how freight train loads. methods of load calculation, and train marshalling information, not only varied between Companies/BR Regions but moved between source documents over the years with a nationally standard method not properly emerging until 1968).  Another good one is in respect of Local Instructions where what would be shown, or need not be shown, in a Sectional Appendix was also changed over the years (it was as late as the 1970s when the last such change was made).

 

And don't forget that a lot of things go back along way although where they were permitted often changed over the years.  Coming back to this thread freight trains permitted to run without a brake van on a running line also goes back a long way.   But where it was permitted was always very strictly controlled and was usually only over very short distances although there were some places where it was allowed over a couple of miles or more.   the only way you will find out for any particular period is by lookinf at teh relevant contemporaneous documents.

 

And that leads to another critical - all operating publications are only a snapshot of what the situation was expected to be on teh date they were published.  It was not unusual to see things, particularly, come out with a supplement showing alterations which applied from the same date and things th like Rule Books and Appendixes are really only a more accurate guide when you look at the various supplements (although that too is not an absolute indication of the date on which a change occurred.   For example the number of vehicles allowed behind the brakevan on a passenger train where the amendment published in the Supplement to the General Appendix post dated certain routes where the change had already taken place - duly authorised by a Notice item.