Cycling chat

[Michael Edge]

5 hours ago, Daddyman said:

Because they're in a race. The whole point of STI levers was so that pros could change gear while honking - that is, while exerting maximum force in the heat of battle. And you don't see any TdF sprinters breaking chains when sprinting (and changing gear) at 1500 or more watts. 

They might be but the vast majority of us aren't - and the ease up on power is momentary. We don't have a team car to throw us another bike when something breaks either.

 

4 hours ago, njee20 said:

 

 

That is very impressive! I used to change chains fanatically, but stopped when they started getting more expensive, it was easier to just replace with the cassette at a lower interval. I did this to a cassette a couple of months ago:

 

i don't use expensive chains either - bog standard Sram usually - I regard the chain as just another consumable, like tyres and brake pads.

[njee20]

Yeah, but chain prices rose compared to cassette prices on an equivalent basis. I do change more often on the MTB, because the cassettes are expensive, but on the road I just run both into the ground (until the cassette snaps in the above case ) and replace chain and cassette together.

[spikey]

Cheers for that. 

 

Gosh.  So were you able to form an opinion as to whether it had apparently distorted before failing (i.e had been "torn apart") or had simply broken (ie cracked and parted)? 

 

Still pondering on the purpose of those small holes, but for sure there's some expensive machining gone into those sprockets ...

[njee20]

Still just weight saving. Zero other purpose!

 

I didn’t examine it too closely, there wasn’t obvious oxidation on the exposed part of the sprocket to suggest it had been cracked for a long time or anything, but there’s very little material, and clearly one of the two failures must have been spontaneous.
 

There was a very slight ‘ping’ noise when it happened, and it failed on the next pedal stroke, I tend toward the rivet failing causing the sprocket to fail, rather than the other way around. I’d expect the rivet to be stronger, and the instantaneous loss of any force once the sprocket failed would dissipate any energy. In my mind the rivet failing instantly loading the others, and subsequently the sprocket, which broke.

 

I replaced it with an all steel one! More widely available, and £150 cheaper!

[Nickey Line]

I think if I'd bought a Dura-Ace cassette that failed like that I'd want my money back! 

Edited November 17, 2021 by Nickey Line

[Bernard Lamb]

4 minutes ago, Nickey Line said:

I think if I'd bought a Dura-Ace cassette that failed like that I'd want my money back! 

Have you heard the saying:-

Campagnolo wears in.

Shimano wears out.

Given the mileage of both chain and cassette I would think it had done quite well.

Bernard

[Nickey Line]

2 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

Have you heard the saying:-

Campagnolo wears in.

Shimano wears out.

Given the mileage of both chain and cassette I would think it had done quite well.

Bernard

 

But a catastrophic failure like that? That has to be a manufacturing fault surely.

The (Ultegra) cassette I'm currently using is on it's fifth chain and has done approx. 17,000 miles... on a pound per mile basis there's no comparison, and that's discounting the threat to life and limb!

[njee20]

Yep, it was several years old, just one of those things. Could be a manufacturing defect, who knows, why would that only manifest after thousands of miles? Could just be fatigue. Not worth dwelling on. Stuff breaks.

 

I've had other cassettes last far longer as well, again, just one of those things. I would never expect to get 17k miles out of a cassette, but it's a bit of a strawman to suggest that because of your one example versus mine Ultegra is definitively better. That said, being all steel, they absolutely should last longer. Ultegra cassettes are still popular in the pro peloton, with the 6.8kg weight limit there's no reason to pare every gram off things.

[Nickey Line]

32 minutes ago, njee20 said:

definitively better

 

Your words, not mine.

 

I've never seen a failure like yours before, nor even heard of such an occurrence... and I certainly don't want to experience one! 

[njee20]

6 minutes ago, Nickey Line said:

 

Your words, not mine.

 

I've never seen a failure like yours before, nor even heard of such an occurrence... and I certainly don't want to experience one! 

 

Nope, neither have I (and I worked in a bike shop on and off for 15 years), and I rather hope it doesn't happen again. But stuff sometimes breaks. In no way would this dissuade me from using Dura Ace cassettes. I've probably had at least 10 over the years, plus a similar number of mountain bike XTR ones, and none have failed. Just one of those things. I didn't get hit by a bus, I rode home, swapped bikes, and carried on with my ride! Then the Di2 battery was flat on that bike, so I had to do the whole ride in one gear. Wasn't the best day!

 

You made the "pound per mile" comparison, which just seems pointless. If I mill a cassette from pig iron it'd probably last even longer, but that's still not the point!

[Nickey Line]

15 minutes ago, njee20 said:

You made the "pound per mile" comparison, which just seems pointless.

 

The point being that if I were to spend that amount of money on a cassette, I would expect it to provide a decent length of service. Let's face it, Ultegra cassettes aren't cheap, and Dura-Ace are several times the price.

 

As for my cassette doing 17,000 miles, it ain't finished yet! 

 

[njee20]

it did provide a decent length of service. It outlasted a rim, a pair of pedals, a bottom bracket, a couple of pairs of tyres and brake pads and a few tubes on the same bike. It just broke. Of course if you only look at an arbitrary cost per mile then expensive stuff never makes sense, as it rarely gets markedly more durable, and often less so. But that’s not why I chose it. Otherwise I’d have a £50 Halfords bike. 

 

I’ve never had a cassette last 17,000 miles, I’ve never even checked frankly. Clearly you value durability, I don’t particularly. Stuff lasts a certain length of time, then I replace it. Ok that cassette announced the end of its life rather more violently then would be ideal, but it’s just one of those things. 
 

Dura Ace cassettes are about three times the price of Ultegra FWIW, but I don’t see how that’s relevant here. They don’t claim to last longer, indeed like I say they’re less durable. 

Edited November 18, 2021 by njee20

[spikey]

Keep it up, chaps.  First I learn that one can pay £150 for a single sprocket for a cassette, then it seems that on some bikes you need a battery to change gear. 

Gosh.  No wonder roadies rarely deign to acknowledge my acknowledgement of their presence on the road ...

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by spikey
not enough coffee yet

[Michael Edge]

10 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

Have you heard the saying:-

Campagnolo wears in.

Shimano wears out.

Given the mileage of both chain and cassette I would think it had done quite well.

Bernard

The Campag hubs on my Claud Butler road bike have been going since December 1965 - and that was my only bike until 2003. I've no idea how many miles they have done but 10000 since I started keeping a record. Out of all the chains I've used on the other bike  by far the shortest life was the only Shimano one I've fitted.

[Nearholmer]

59 minutes ago, spikey said:

No wonder roadies rarely deign to acknowledge my acknowledgement of their presence on the road ...

It’s about super-optimisation of person and machine to do what amounts to one particular thing, is it not?

 

That sort of focus, in any sport or other endeavour, always results in moving far along the curve of diminishing returns in terms of money, time and effort spent …….. each tiny margin of performance improvement gained is valued so hugely that almost anything is worth paying to achieve it.

 

It’s definitely never been my cup of tea, and leaves me scratching my head a bit, but I wouldn’t decry it any more than I’d decry P4 railway modelling, which is rather the same thing. 
 

What gimlet-focused optimisation does tend towards, which might be relevant here, is running person and machine very close to their ‘design limits’, stressing components like sprockets and hip-joints as highly as one dares, which implies a willingness to accept catastrophic failures when the very fine line is accidentally crossed. And, catastrophic failures can get very scary indeed on a public road.

 

As a very un-optimised cyclist, I had a pedal detach from the crank under load, because the incompetent fool who assembled the bike at a well-known car accessory shop beginning with ‘H’ had omitted a very important load-spreading washer. Very luckily it happened as I was stopping to take a photo, not as I was being overtaken by a lorry, because if it had ……

 

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Nearholmer

[spikey]

34 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

... It’s definitely never been my cup of tea, and leaves me scratching my head a bit, but I wouldn’t decry it any more than I’d decry P4 railway modelling, which is rather the same thing. 

 

And possibly cheaper?  Whatever, I agree entirely.  To each, their own

 

Time for another coffee, then off for a "spin" on my "trusty" Batavus, complete with box on the rear carrier containing the Waitrose bags and my poo shovel.  If I spot a roadie, I shall now picture him riding along happily thinking of weight-saving then being dismayed to realise that he's got his keys and his phone with him ... 

 

[njee20]

56 minutes ago, spikey said:

Keep it up, chaps.  First I learn that one can pay £150 for a single sprocket for a cassette, then it seems that on some bikes you need a battery to change gear. 

Gosh.  No wonder roadies rarely deign to acknowledge my acknowledgement of their presence on the road ...

 

Haha! I acknowledge everyone I see on a bike (when I’m not in London at least!); can’t abide the pseudo elitism that some people are somehow not worth a nod/wave/hello. But yes… Shimano Di2, SRAM Etap and Campag EPS - electronic shifting. No cables, very reliable, very fast shifting. A charge lasts about 1,500 miles (on Di2 at least), but the battery still goes flat if you don’t use the bike for 6 months 

 

38 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

It’s about super-optimisation of person and machine to do what amounts to one particular thing, is it not?

 

That sort of focus, in any sport or other endeavour, always results in moving far along the curve of diminishing returns in terms of money, time and effort spent …….. each tiny margin of performance improvement gained is valued so hugely that almost anything is worth paying to achieve it.

 

It’s definitely never been my cup of tea, and leaves me scratching my head a bit, but I wouldn’t decry it any more than I’d decry P4 railway modelling, which is rather the same thing. 
 

What gimlet-focused optimisation does tend towards, which might be relevant here, is running person and machine very close to their ‘design limits’, stressing components like sprockets and hip-joints as highly as one dares, which implies a willingness to accept catastrophic failures when the very fine line is accidentally crossed. And, catastrophic failures can get very scary indeed on a public road.

 

As a very un-optimised cyclist, I had a pedal detach from the crank under load, because the incompetent fool who assembled the bike at a well-known car accessory shop beginning with ‘H’ had omitted a very important load-spreading washer. Very luckily it happened as I was stopping to take a photo, not as I was being overtaken by a lorry, because of it had ……

 

 

 

I think your experience shows that you can have catastrophic failures even if you’re not pushing the limits of technology (although I accept yours was related to installer-error), but I don’t think there’s a willingness to accept it as such. I just don’t really dwell on it, or you’d never do anything. A tyre could burst on any bike, or car, with terrible consequences, but if you ride and drive with that in mind then you’ll never do anything. I’ve ridden about 100,000 miles in my life, and had one failure like that. I’ll keep taking that risk.
 

I’m not sure that buying top end kit is a P4 thing as such. It’s more Hornby Railroad versus Bachmann. It’s a bit more expensive, but by and large it’s just a bit better (but I think railway analogies are likely tortured!). There’s no extra effort (as there is with P4) or other outlay. Durability can be less; brakes don’t work as well on carbon rims etc so I guess ‘better’ is subjective, but everyone falls somewhere on a spectrum between cost and performance. You pay your money and take your choice, no right or wrong 

[bodmin16]

This is a quick thanks to Tractioman for starting this thread and to everybody who has contributed.  I have since a period of illness mid August, been a little demotivated of late, however you guys with the chat have taken me back to basics and I have found my mojo again.  So far this week I have been out 3 times albeit shorter than normal rides, but I am back out and enjoying it.  And of course I am feeling mentally and physically the better for it.  Thank you guys and please keep the friendly chat and encouragement up.  Stay safe out there.

Alan

[Nearholmer]

Top-end anything is the same, P4 modelling, road cycling, stamp collecting, playing the violin, or whatever, it involves taking a thing as far as one possibly can, whether that be dimensional fidelity to the prototype, speed or endurance, rarity of issue, beauty of musical interpretation, etc. It’s about doing The Best (as defined in the mind of the do-er), and nothing wrong with that.

[big jim]

11 minutes ago, njee20 said:

Haha! I acknowledge everyone I see on a bike (when I’m not in London at least!); can’t abide the pseudo elitism that some people are somehow not worth a nod/wave/hello.

 

saw a tweet the other week where an ‘elite cyclist’ had passed comment on a riders trainers in a picture that was posted, another then said ‘and it’s a carerra so not even a proper bike’, the first reply to that was ‘nobody cares about your £200 cleats Dave’ summed it up nicely for me!

 

i always give a nod or say hi if I pass another cyclist regardless of what machine they are on 

 

I paid £1100 for my bike, (the same price as I paid for my diesel mini!) I’ve done a few mods on the bike to get it how I wanted, some trial and error, trying different saddles, grips, mirrors etc  but none of those bits being more than a few quid off Amazon as for what I use it for I don’t see the point in spending huge amounts of money on it, not like I’m trying to save weight or make myself faster, just trying to make my ride comfier, safer and more pleasurable

 

I’ve found if I get chatting to someone about the bike, which inevitably happens while in the train or on a station a lot of the time the conversation is “I was thinking about getting an electric bike, so you recommend it” that’s my cue to get the weight loss pic up in my phone and show them what a difference going out cycling can make!

 

ive just had my job changed Saturday now and the first thing I did was check whether I can use my bike for it instead of a hire car and I can so it’s going to get me another 15 mile in (home to the station, tamworth to birch coppice, kings Norton to longbridge) 

 

 

[spikey]

1 hour ago, big jim said:

I’ve found if I get chatting to someone about the bike, which inevitably happens while in the train or on a station a lot of the time the conversation is “I was thinking about getting an electric bike, so you recommend it” ...

 

What amuses me most are the folk who say they'd love to ride a bike again like they did when they were a kid/at uni/a postman  or whatever, but it's too dangerous.  My stock reply is "OK, so why isn't it too dangerous for an old git like me who rides a bike everywhere on the roads, all year round unless it's icey, and I don't even wear a helmet?"

 

If I ever got a rational answer to that, it's so long ago now that I've forgotten it.

[Classsix T]

I think it was Chris Boardman during the TdF that said cycling wasn't inherently dangerous, but there is an element of risk.

 

C6T. 

[Daddyman]

37 minutes ago, Classsix T said:

I think it was Chris Boardman during the TdF that said cycling wasn't inherently dangerous, but there is an element of risk.

 

C6T. 

He certainly wouldn't say that any more - his mother was killed while cycling. And indeed he's done lots to try to improve safety in recent years.

 

I've virtually stopped going out on the road as it was getting if not dangerous then stressful. I used to get perhaps one close pass a week but it was getting up to 3 per ride when I stopped two years ago. In one of my last rides before I switched to an e-trainer I had some a#@ewipe overtake me just about on the apex of a blind bend, and just as I was giving a hand single indicating I thought he should stop pleasuring himself while driving, another *%@# overtook me following him. Now I do most of my annual 4000 miles in my room, or in the garden, and it's far more exciting than anything the Sarf has to offer scenery-wise, and far less aggro. I raced in Brazil last Friday, Spain the week before, and I think it's Lausanne tomorrow. 

[bodmin16]

I am lucky in that there is a cycle shop just down the road from me that are absolutely brilliant in knowing which bike is good for who and if it is right for you.  When I purchased my first "real" bike they pointed me in the direction of an £800 bike and eased me in with all the bits and pieces.  They fitted real pedals and said come back later once you have ridden around for a few months before you try anything else, which I did, then when I wanted a second bike just a little way up the scale they suggest a couple of bikes around £1500, so I now have two very good bikes that fit both me and my needs perfectly.  This shop deals in some amazing machinery up to £10s thousands, when I was looking they suggested that they could sell me any of these but why?  What I have serves my needs and like high performance cars high performance bikes need more maintenance which would be surplus to what I use the bike for.  When I was looking for a more general bike to hack around on to the shops and the like, they suggested that for what I wanted what they had on stock would be overkill and other stockist may have something to fit my needs.  I do wonder how many people are out their on the roads with "all the gear and no idea"?

And yes I am a MAMIL, however I know my place and my abilities and I say hi to everybody on the road, no matter what it is (road, electric, horse or even walking their dog), and I always stop to help anybody in trouble.  I have more admiration for somebody like me who is/was unfit and is out on a machine trying to do something about it than somebody who does something that they think they are something special!

[Nearholmer]

Daddyman

 

Have you thought about path cycling, fashionably called “gravel” these day? One of the many reasons I love it is that it gets me away from cars and lorries, where one mistake or idiot is all it takes.

 

Anyway, my bike ride went wildly off-plan today. I set out to do a flat ride round two local lakes, which is an easy 14 miles in an hour to blow cobwebs away. It was so beautiful outside that my bike spontaneously set-off in another direction altogether, and I got home 40 miles, a lot of steep hills, and every type of lane and path you can imagine later. Never trust your bike to pick the route!

 

I’m rubbish at taking photos while cycling, so you’ll have to imagine blue skies, golden trees etc, and put up with just one from at the beginning, and a rather odd selfie taken at the end.