Track cleaning - back to the drawing board

[DCB]

Any solvent left "Wet" on the rails will rapidly dissolve the crud on your wheels and spread it over the layout, and / or attack the traction tyres causing the black ones to deposit crud.  Clear ones seem OK though.  You can easily become a track cleaning enthusiast instead of a modeler.  I drag Peco rubbers around the layout and have a cut down rubber  within a wagon chassis which is pulled whichever way the wagon moves.  It works. The Dapol one is great as a Vacuum cleaner and we have two of the roller type and the Triang cleaner, even a cast kit (Wills) with abrasive pads but its always back to the to the peco type.   Its the spirit causing the wheel tyre crud to spread and its disastrous effect on traction which rules the IPA etc out for me.  Now if someone would make a fully automatic wheel cleaner to clean 800 or so wheels in an hour without removing them from the vehicles...

[rob D2]

I thought IPA just evaporates away as fast as I use it TBH ?

[mezzoman253]

IPA is a polar product, it contains and absorbs water. It will clean the track but if left it will need to be repeated continually.

 

The non-polar products aid conductivity over long periods.

 

Current thinking seems to be:-

 

Try and limit dust, keep temperature stable and humidity low(dehumidifier).

 

Clean track surface thoroughly, with a non polar product. Then use a conductivity enhancer such as INOX for long term reliability(see videos).

 

Run trains regularly.

 

Don't use track rubbers  or abrasives, they create micro scratches in the rail surface that will collect crud.

 

Avoid traction tyres, and plastic wheel sets on rolling stock, they will distribute the crud around more effectively than metal sets.

 

YMMV Rob

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by mezzoman253

[Andymsa]

44 minutes ago, mezzoman253 said:

IPA is a polar product, it contains and absorbs water. It will clean the track but if left it will need to be repeated continually.

 

The non-polar products aid conductivity over long periods.

 

Current thinking seems to be:-

 

Try and limit dust, keep temperature stable and humidity low(dehumidifier).

 

Clean track surface thoroughly, then use a conductivity enhancer such as INOX for long term reliability( see videos).

 

Run trains regularly.

 

Don't use track rubbers or abrasives, they create micro scratches in the rail surface that will collect crud.

 

Avoid traction tyres, and plastic wheel sets on rolling stock, they will distribute the crud around more effectively than metal sets.

 

YMMV Rob

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

use inox carefully as it breaks down traction tyres, I know you said avoid them but just saying for clarity. Although would Electrolube be the same ?

Edited December 10, 2021 by Andymsa

[Andymsa]

1 hour ago, DCB said:

Any solvent left "Wet" on the rails will rapidly dissolve the crud on your wheels and spread it over the layout, and / or attack the traction tyres causing the black ones to deposit crud.  Clear ones seem OK though.  You can easily become a track cleaning enthusiast instead of a modeler.  I drag Peco rubbers around the layout and have a cut down rubber  within a wagon chassis which is pulled whichever way the wagon moves.  It works. The Dapol one is great as a Vacuum cleaner and we have two of the roller type and the Triang cleaner, even a cast kit (Wills) with abrasive pads but its always back to the to the peco type.   Its the spirit causing the wheel tyre crud to spread and its disastrous effect on traction which rules the IPA etc out for me.  Now if someone would make a fully automatic wheel cleaner to clean 800 or so wheels in an hour without removing them from the vehicles...

I really would avoid abrasive cleaning as your putting even more scratches on the rail head giving more places for black crud to hide.

[mezzoman253]

This video is a good one for explaining why non-polar cleaners are preferable to polar products.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBYxjcTWCB0    You need to be patient as the presenter does take his time to get to some interesting content, and the latter part could be construed as a "plug" for a certain product. Although he seems genuinely impressed by it.

 

Also there is mention of CRC products which are contact cleaners. However some are polar and some non-polar, so you need to use the right one.

 

Electrolube covers a wide range of products, so picking the correct one(s) would need some research.  This makes it difficult to say what effect it would have on traction tyres.

 

It's worth looking out these various videos on YouTube and making your own mind up. But there's some basic science behind a lot of the more recent ones, which is worth knowing.

 

The track rubber really should be consigned to history now.

 

Rob

[Ouroborus]

12 hours ago, Andymsa said:

I really would avoid abrasive cleaning as your putting even more scratches on the rail head giving more places for black crud to hide.

 

Won't that depend upon the grade of the abrasive cleaner?

[mezzoman253]

Yes, but even the finest grades will damage the track. Ideally the rail head should not be abraded, by ANY kind of material, from new.

 

Rob

[Ouroborus]

I follow your point, but it rather makes an assumption that track when new is perfectly smooth and flat and despite use, is not abraded by wheels passing over it.

 

The finer grades of wet and dry are typically 3000 and used to polish paint shiny.  You can go much further with polishing cloths such as those from Alcad which take you to 12000

 

There is a difference between cleaning and polishing and i would suggest that for the cleaner to be its most effective, that track needs to be polished smooth

[Michael Hodgson]

14 hours ago, mezzoman253 said:

 

Clean track surface thoroughly, with a non polar product. Then use a conductivity enhancer such as INOX for long term reliability( see videos).

 

I only know inox as French for Stainless Steel (abbreviation of inoxidable).

I take it you are talking about some commercial product?

[mezzoman253]

4 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I only know inox as French for Stainless Steel (abbreviation of inoxidable).

I take it you are talking about some commercial product?

Yes, INOX is a range of commercial products from Australia, and a few of those suitable for our purposes are available in the UK from https://www.dcctrainautomation.co.uk/. No affiliation, just a satisfied customer.

 

Taking the previous post re polishing. Yes, if your track was heavily pitted, then probably polishing with very fine grade would be the only way to restore it to any sort of condition. Then apply the lubricant/conductive product. We are talking microscopic pitting as the root cause, so the polishing medium needs to be of a similar or better grade to not compound that.

 

Whatever works for you, and gives reliable running and less cleaning.

 

Rob

 

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by mezzoman253
spelling

[Andymsa]

1 hour ago, Ouroborus said:

I follow your point, but it rather makes an assumption that track when new is perfectly smooth and flat and despite use, is not abraded by wheels passing over it.

 

The finer grades of wet and dry are typically 3000 and used to polish paint shiny.  You can go much further with polishing cloths such as those from Alcad which take you to 12000

 

There is a difference between cleaning and polishing and i would suggest that for the cleaner to be its most effective, that track needs to be polished smooth

 

new track has imperfections on it when viewed under a microscope. By using a abrasive your adding to those imperfections, polishing or cleaning is the same thing in respect that any surface you rub is removing material. Obviously if track is so badly pitted or damaged then an abrasive would be the only choice, personally if track was that bad I would replace it.

[Michael Hodgson]

What we need is a working model of a rail grinding train.  

That should get the neighbours complaining about the noise!

[ruggedpeak]

4 hours ago, Andymsa said:

 

Obviously if track is so badly pitted or damaged then an abrasive would be the only choice, personally if track was that bad I would replace it.

you mean like this?

 

 

[boxbrownie]

8 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

you mean like this?

 

 

That boy is going to blow himself up one day! 

[SamThomas]

Really irresponsible to publish challenges like that - all the "cautions" & conditions in the world will not stop some people putting themselves at risk.

 

[RobinofLoxley]

On 06/12/2021 at 20:18, Andymsa said:

inox as they call it in oz, can’t remember what we call it is not compatible with locos that use traction tyres as it rots the traction tyre..

Be very careful when you say that. If you follow the videos very carefully (sorry) they refer to the situation where track cleaning cars are pulled around by a traction tyred loco, so the traction tyre is exposed to the solvent blend in the wet. Depending on the conditions in the room, once the solvent blend has evaporated there is no material left to affect the tyres.

 

Also, I wouldnt say that the science was very well explained. Some of the mistakes happen because its two guys having a conversation and they arent reading from a script, no editing etc.

 

Loved the mad Aussie. His best point was that AC and DC are completely different as regards arcing, something I would concur with 100% and I am not running trains very much, having just converted from DC to DCC. When my kids were young, we used to set up the Hornby Duchess with some coaches running round a loop, then turn the lights off. Like sparklers on fireworks night! It was the loco wheels not the tender wheels that finished up dirty, in the main. His other point about needing conductivity not cleanliness was also well made.

[Andymsa]

1 hour ago, RobinofLoxley said:

Be very careful when you say that. If you follow the videos very carefully (sorry) they refer to the situation where track cleaning cars are pulled around by a traction tyred loco, so the traction tyre is exposed to the solvent blend in the wet. Depending on the conditions in the room, once the solvent blend has evaporated there is no material left to affect the tyres.

 

Also, I wouldnt say that the science was very well explained. Some of the mistakes happen because its two guys having a conversation and they arent reading from a script, no editing etc.

 

Loved the mad Aussie. His best point was that AC and DC are completely different as regards arcing, something I would concur with 100% and I am not running trains very much, having just converted from DC to DCC. When my kids were young, we used to set up the Hornby Duchess with some coaches running round a loop, then turn the lights off. Like sparklers on fireworks night! It was the loco wheels not the tender wheels that finished up dirty, in the main. His other point about needing conductivity not cleanliness was also well made.

Sorry but are you quoting the videos correctly, I say this as my understanding of inox(aus) and a similar product no ox ID a specific (US) is a two stage process. First off you use a non polar cleaner this as you say will evaporate, the next stage involves inox ect, this will leave a protective layer  on the rail head, it (A) protects from further oxidation, (B) aids electrical conduction. So I will stand by my comments be careful when using traction tyres. I will add I have viewed many videos on this and done other research into this looking at various forums and websites.

 

footnote from inox website

 

“The lubricant is made with a high grade white oil, rust inhibitors and other components to give lasting protection from corrosion and oxidation.”

 

as you will see it’s oil based which doesn’t go well with rubber

Edited December 13, 2021 by Andymsa
Further info

[RobinofLoxley]

Its very easy to get wires crossed here. I was only referring to the cleaning process not the treatment process. Its part of a long term need to get this part of the hobby right, as when the layout is finished like you I will have a lot of track to look after. As a rule, with the last DC layout I had few issues with track maintenance relating to cleaning, most were to do with general reliability of construction. Now i will have most of the construction things sorted I focus on reliability. Ive got a lot of building and DCC conversions etc to do before I need the final answers - Im just doing the prep now.

[Andymsa]

1 hour ago, RobinofLoxley said:

Its very easy to get wires crossed here. I was only referring to the cleaning process not the treatment process. Its part of a long term need to get this part of the hobby right, as when the layout is finished like you I will have a lot of track to look after. As a rule, with the last DC layout I had few issues with track maintenance relating to cleaning, most were to do with general reliability of construction. Now i will have most of the construction things sorted I focus on reliability. Ive got a lot of building and DCC conversions etc to do before I need the final answers - Im just doing the prep now.

Like the pun of wires crossed lol. I don’t believe I said that the cleaning process can cause traction tyre issues which is what one of your previous posts said or inferred. Just for clarity it is the use of inox or similar that can cause traction tyre issues.

[WIMorrison]

Do you think that Inox would clean this for me?

 

 

[RobinofLoxley]

On 08/12/2021 at 22:53, rob D2 said:

What’s wrong with IPA then ?

cotton buds and IPA I use as a rule and Rocco track cleaner for the locos 

According to what has been written and posted in the various links, IPA is an effective track cleaner but leaves residues on the track that will itself be a cause of future corrosion. So you will be cleaning more frequently and have running troubles caused by dirty track.

[RobinofLoxley]

1 hour ago, WIMorrison said:

Do you think that Inox would clean this for me?

 

 

Unfortunately Inox isnt suitable for that. You need a very large kitchen sink and about 25kg of sodium bisulphate anhydrous, and 10 years supply of brillo pads.