BR Road Vehicle Liveries - Mid 60s

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Martino said:

Reading the posts about driving tests etc., got me remembering that there was a BR driving school or similar on the A4 Bath Road, just south of Taplow station.  It had various hills and junctions, a shed and office.  There were a collection of Scammel mechanical horses there.  The area was located between the A4 and the railway embankment just east of the bridge that took the GW main line over the A4.  Anyone remember that? 

That was the original GWR driving school and it was set up to train drivers for the road delivery fleet.  The site was probably chosen because it was available and it wasn't far from the GWR's Road Motor Dept HQ in Slough.  The site continued in WR use and was also later used to teach people to drive cars if their job required them to drive and they didn't have a Driving Licence - my first Area Manager boss in South Wales had been taught to drive there and was passed out by a BR Examiner.

 

The site was quite cramped but it had various road signs and normal road markings at junctions etc plus a steep hill (there was a drop down to it anyway from the Down side of the station).  I'm not sure when it was finally run down but it would have been in the very late 1960s or early 1970s although it sat there looking rather forlorn.  subsequently at one time I believe that it was taken over by driving school but the site now appears to be occupied by a used car dealer and there is little trace left of the original road layout.

[Martino]

That’s it.   Thank you Mr Stationmaster.

[SM42]

As regards insurance, Railtrack had 3rd party only I believe and possibly NR are likewise. Any loss to self being easily covered by the savings on premium.

 

Andy

[hmrspaul]

On 09/01/2022 at 14:41, cctransuk said:

 

An extremely interesting photo - an example of a diagram 3/047 'B' container - a small batch from Park Royal fabricated from aluminium sections; hence the unpainted finish and black(?) lettering. The placing of the lettering to the RH end is also unusual, as is the plate numbered '15'.

 

Perhaps Paul Bartlett has further information?

 

John Isherwood.

 

John

 

No idea, all I've known of were like that https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/bralloycontainerb

 

There are some on here that believe BR and their many commercial manufacturer's could follow instructions but I don't believe that is the case which is why the corporate image was so important. 

 

As to the discussion about uninsured Government vehicles - been there and been stopped by police whom didn't understand the exemption disc until they read it.

 

Someone asked about maintenance - well in MArch 1969 I visited York on an HMRS AGM trip and remember looking down from Queens St. bridge approaching York station into the BR road maintenance area - now on the map as Europcar with the rear area now sports courts for the Railway Institute club. Large companies seemed to have their own maintenance in those days - I remember visiting a huge such facility in Cardiff the following year which was for Government vehicles, Police etc. I suspect warranty requirements have made it more suitable to use main dealers, but I may well be wrong. Certainly Network Rail operates a huge fleet of road vehicles of much variety here in York https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/road

 

Paul

 

[The Stationmaster]

21 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

 

John

 

No idea, all I've known of were like that https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/bralloycontainerb

 

There are some on here that believe BR and their many commercial manufacturer's could follow instructions but I don't believe that is the case which is why the corporate image was so important. 

 

As to the discussion about uninsured Government vehicles - been there and been stopped by police whom didn't understand the exemption disc until they read it.

 

Someone asked about maintenance - well in MArch 1969 I visited York on an HMRS AGM trip and remember looking down from Queens St. bridge approaching York station into the BR road maintenance area - now on the map as Europcar with the rear area now sports courts for the Railway Institute club. Large companies seemed to have their own maintenance in those days - I remember visiting a huge such facility in Cardiff the following year which was for Government vehicles, Police etc. I suspect warranty requirements have made it more suitable to use main dealers, but I may well be wrong. Certainly Network Rail operates a huge fleet of road vehicles of much variety here in York https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/road

 

Paul

 

All the BR road vehicle maintenance sites were transferred to NCL management in 1967 when NCL was hived-off even if they were inside an area which remained with BR.  BR were forced (for want of a better word) to consign all their road vehicle maintenance to NCL and it was extremely difficult to break away from that arrangement as BR had to prove all sorts of deliberate failings on the part of NCL if theuy wished to get out of the contract at any location.  The result was not always to BR's benefit - for example at Westbury we had three cars on the Area Manager's strength plus several vehocles belonging to the Perway Dept  anda van belonging to the S&T techs and these had to go to either Yeovil or Bristol for servicing.   Thus while we had 3 Ford Escorts with a Ford main dealer with a good reputation within walking distance should we need to leave a car there our cars had to go to NCL at Yeovil and their road motor workshop was at Hendford so we were effectively stuck there waiting for the car whilst it was serviced.  The only thing they didn't deal with which allowed the cars to go elsewhere was the repair of collision damage.

 

It was in many respects a ludicrous situation and it ni doubt cost BR dearly over the years - in light vehicle mileage as well as the actual servicing costs while in some places the standard of NCL's work was little  better than totally abysmal - for example it took me part of two weekends using borrowed tools to sort out a Mini which had been 'maintained' by NCL at Swansea but misfired almost continuously because the points weren't correctly set (among other faults).

[MidlandRed]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

All the BR road vehicle maintenance sites were transferred to NCL management in 1967 when NCL was hived-off even if they were inside an area which remained with BR.  BR were forced (for want of a better word) to consign all their road vehicle maintenance to NCL and it was extremely difficult to break away from that arrangement as BR had to prove all sorts of deliberate failings on the part of NCL if theuy wished to get out of the contract at any location.  The result was not always to BR's benefit - for example at Westbury we had three cars on the Area Manager's strength plus several vehocles belonging to the Perway Dept  anda van belonging to the S&T techs and these had to go to either Yeovil or Bristol for servicing.   Thus while we had 3 Ford Escorts with a Ford main dealer with a good reputation within walking distance should we need to leave a car there our cars had to go to NCL at Yeovil and their road motor workshop was at Hendford so we were effectively stuck there waiting for the car whilst it was serviced.  The only thing they didn't deal with which allowed the cars to go elsewhere was the repair of collision damage.

 

It was in many respects a ludicrous situation and it ni doubt cost BR dearly over the years - in light vehicle mileage as well as the actual servicing costs while in some places the standard of NCL's work was little  better than totally abysmal - for example it took me part of two weekends using borrowed tools to sort out a Mini which had been 'maintained' by NCL at Swansea but misfired almost continuously because the points weren't correctly set (among other faults).

Im not at all surprised to hear this - I think it was true of quite a lot of organisations in the public sector. 
 

A couple of questions here:-

 

1) Does anyone know when the vehicles had ownership (and decals) changed to NCL - I had presumed start of 1968, and as with transfer of buses to PTEs, the legends on the vehicles were changed ‘overnight’? If the National Bus Company was anything to go by, they were apparently far less bothered, taking a while to develop a corporate identity and with some exceptions, vehicles driving around in original liveries with original historic fleetnames until repaint (taking several years). NCL simply had different logos on yellow vehicles.

 

2) For freight and parcels road vehicles, was there a notional repaint cycle (say 3 yrs) - noting many vehicles were changed to yellow after the 1963 change in image - eg Scammell Scarabs and trailers.

 

Hearing your story about Ford Escorts puts me in mind of the first trip out surveying on site, as a recent recruit, I had as a front seat passenger in one of the organisation’s 1969 Mini pool cars - travelling over a severe pot hole, the rear suspension collapsed - after recovery to the depot, the vehicle disappeared to be replaced by a brand new one a few weeks later!! It was a mk 3 Mini and much better - for a time having a shiny rather than faded matt version of the ‘municipal’ livery!! It was an eye opener how wrecked these vehicles of various types could get in no time!! 

[The Stationmaster]

NCL's 'new' (more a variant of BR) livery appeared very quickly on some ex BR vehicles but generally from what I can recall it was really a sort of rebadging exercise with yellow remaining the basic vehicle colour until NFC began to integrate its vehicle fleets.

 

Alas pool cars were always the worst sufferers of all.  We had a 'land crab' at Swindon which had been the Divisional Manager's car, chauffer driven, at Reading prior to the 1985 reorganisation and once all and sundry started driving it and it was 'just another car' for NCL to maintain it quickly became a very unreliable vehicle.  The 4 series Peugeot which succeeded it gradually went the same way having started out as a good reliable vehicle it broke  down on me one day on the A303.

[rodent279]

Slightly OT- did BR ever have Morris Minors on its books, either vans in engineering use, or saloons as pool cars?

I've seen plenty of pics of Morris Minor vans in crimson & cream with the British Railways sausage logo but they're all modern day taken at preserved railways. Was the Morris Minor in crimson & cream really a thing?

[The Stationmaster]

9 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Slightly OT- did BR ever have Morris Minors on its books, either vans in engineering use, or saloons as pool cars?

I've seen plenty of pics of Morris Minor vans in crimson & cream with the British Railways sausage logo but they're all modern day taken at preserved railways. Was the Morris Minor in crimson & cream really a thing?

I can't give a definite answer but i do remember a BR Sales Rep talking about using a Morris Minor but I don't know if it was his own car or a BR vehicle.  Could well have been a Br vehicle because they were popular with some fleet operators and BR definitely had Minis which conceivably might have replaced Minors (although on the WR the Minis were replaced by Mk I Escorts and they in turn were replaced by MkIi Escorts while contemporaneous small vans were HA Vauxhall Vivas - but that is all 1970s stuff.   

[rodent279]

17 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I can't give a definite answer but i do remember a BR Sales Rep talking about using a Morris Minor but I don't know if it was his own car or a BR vehicle.  Could well have been a Br vehicle because they were popular with some fleet operators and BR definitely had Minis which conceivably might have replaced Minors (although on the WR the Minis were replaced by Mk I Escorts and they in turn were replaced by MkIi Escorts while contemporaneous small vans were HA Vauxhall Vivas - but that is all 1970s stuff.   

I've seen a photo of an F reg van in crimson & cream- my Traveller is G reg 1969, so an F is 1968, surely post the crimson & cream era?

[Marshall5]

F reg's began in August 1967.  My first car was an F reg Minivan first registered in the October.

Ray.

[Merfyn Jones]

6 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Slightly OT- did BR ever have Morris Minors on its books, either vans in engineering use, or saloons as pool cars?

I've seen plenty of pics of Morris Minor vans in crimson & cream with the British Railways sausage logo but they're all modern day taken at preserved railways. Was the Morris Minor in crimson & cream really a thing?

 

The answer is yes they did, but very little is known of them.

I have a copy of a picture showing one van in red/cream at Cwmbran, WR. No visible numbers.

I have on record CVY313K  a Austin Minor van at York

Also a batch JGK371K - JGK399K of Austin Minors on the Southern Region, many allocated to Croydon

Records show about 8 assorted cars on the LMR, WR, & ER.

The modern replicas are given away as fake by the registrations which are all after red/cream ceased being used.

[MidlandRed]

19 minutes ago, Merfyn Jones said:

 

The answer is yes they did, but very little is known of them.

I have a copy of a picture showing one van in red/cream at Cwmbran, WR. No visible numbers.

I have on record CVY313K  a Austin Minor van at York

Also a batch JGK371K - JGK399K of Austin Minors on the Southern Region, many allocated to Croydon

Records show about 8 assorted cars on the LMR, WR, & ER.

The modern replicas are given away as fake by the registrations which are all after red/cream ceased being used.

So going back to the livery issue, would all vehicles of this type have been yellow if new after 1963 (except the departments using green till later?). 

[Merfyn Jones]

14 minutes ago, MidlandRed said:

So going back to the livery issue, would all vehicles of this type have been yellow if new after 1963 (except the departments using green till later?). 

 

Yes

[Hal Nail]

I'm still not clear on the standard vehicle livery between c1957 and 1963 yellow. Would new vehicles in that period have been painted later maroon and cream (which isn't consistent with coaching stock) or are all vehicles with cream, actually still in the earlier crimson? (Edit - other than these chocolate and cream exceptions)

Edited February 3, 2022 by Hal Nail

[BernardTPM]

The red and cream was in general use until replaced by yellow for the collection and delivery fleet. For an example here's a Bedford TK with Speedfreight container. The film was a 1963 release, but may have been filmed in 1962.

[Hal Nail]

On 03/02/2022 at 10:26, BernardTPM said:

The red and cream was in general use until replaced by yellow for the collection and delivery fleet.

Yes and thanks for reply, but Im asking which red?

 

Nearly all the various models available and plenty of preserved vehicles are in later maroon and cream. All the period photos I've ever seen appear to be the earlier crimson (and cream).

 

Given coaching stock never had maroon and cream, I'm asking did vehicles? I suspect the answer may be yes for new deliveries between c'57 and '63 but it was probably rarer because most older vehicles simply retained their earlier crimson.

Edited February 5, 2022 by Hal Nail

[BernardTPM]

As far as I know the red was the same red as used for the earlier crimson/cream coaches and didn't change in 1956.

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

As far as I know the red was the same red as used for the earlier crimson/cream coaches and didn't change in 1956.

 

Not at all sure about that - my clear recollection of BR road vehicles is of the carmine (blood) being changed to crimson lake (maroon) at around the time that the coaching stock livery changed.

 

This is bourne out by photos - later ones clearly show maroon rather than blood.

 

John Isherwood.

[BernardTPM]

I was hoping someone might be able to come up with something definitive regarding a change of paint specification there; half the reason for saying that to be honest, to smoke out information. Photos can be very light dependent. You only have to look at more recent pictures of EWS livery to see how that can vary from deep maroon to cherry red.

[MidlandRed]

Whilst not definitive, and also being wary of colour photos etc, in the West Gloucester and Wye Valley Lines (Vol 1 BR History in Colour), P163 there is a 1962 photo of the approach road to Ross on Wye station with a parked BR road lorry (Austin), which is clearly in a different ‘maroon’ from the coaches in the same and adjacent photos (lighter red, more of a paler maroon colour). However some colour shots of carmine/cream coaches show an even brighter red to the colour - possibly caused by colour bias in the films and reproduction used. 

 

Comparison with the colour of the ex GW railcar W19W (carmine/cream) on p9 of the Supplement to that book suggests that is closer to the colour, if not the same, than maroon coaches. 
 

The book British Railways Road Vehicles 1948-1968 contains a lot of photos across that range of dates and whilst many are in monochrome, there is no discernible difference in the colours of vehicles until the change to yellow. 
 

Somewhere deep in archives, there will be specifications for the colours of road vehicles (presumably giving BS numbers) which were given to manufacturers (noting BR road workshops built many of the bodies on vehicles) but it seems likely they remained the same until 1963 - the only difference I remember from recollection from say 1960 on, is the  maroon/cream vehicles became quite washed out in colour after a period in service - red, and particularly maroon, does not wear well with UV light and paint was not as durable as modern applications back then. 
 

I tend to think the BR road vehicle colour arrangements remained the same from introduction until the yellow was introduced (design panel involvement) from 1963. The maroon/cream Bedford TK tractor units of 1962? for use with Speedfreight containers referenced with photos in ‘Bernard TPM’s post above look to be the same colour as say early 50s Scarabs et al, and although in black and white, the maroon seems to have a lighter hue than comparable photos of contemporary maroon coaching stock. 
 

As a matter of interest, and quoting from the book above, in 1966 BR ordered 1290 Scammell Townsman tractor units, 1090 Karrier Bantam Tractor units, and 950 Bedford TK tractor units - all of which would have been delivered in yellow. A significant volume of new vehicles. 

Edited February 5, 2022 by MidlandRed

[cctransuk]

25 minutes ago, MidlandRed said:

Whilst not definitive, and also being wary of colour photos etc, in the West Gloucester and Wye Valley Lines (Vol 1 BR History in Colour), P163 there is a 1962 photo of the approach road to Ross on Wye station with a parked BR road lorry (Austin), which is clearly in a different ‘maroon’ from the coaches in the same and adjacent photos (lighter red, more of a paler maroon colour). However some colour shots of carmine/cream coaches show an even brighter red to the colour - possibly caused by colour bias in the films and reproduction used. 

 

Comparison with the colour of the ex GW railcar W19W (carmine/cream) on p9 of the Supplement to that book suggests that is closer to the colour, if not the same, than maroon coaches. 
 

The book British Railways Road Vehicles 1948-1968 contains a lot of photos across that range of dates and whilst many are in monochrome, there is no discernible difference in the colours of vehicles until the change to yellow. 
 

Somewhere deep in archives, there will be specifications for the colours of road vehicles (presumably giving BS numbers) which were given to manufacturers (noting BR road workshops built many of the bodies on vehicles) but it seems likely they remained the same until 1963 - the only difference I remember from recollection from say 1960 on, is the  maroon/cream vehicles became quite washed out in colour after a period in service - red, and particularly maroon, does not wear well with UV light and paint was not as durable as modern applications back then. 
 

I tend to think the BR road vehicle colour arrangements remained the same from introduction until the yellow was introduced (design panel involvement) from 1963. The maroon/cream Bedford TK tractor units of 1962? for use with Speedlink containers referenced with photos in ‘Bernard TPM’s post above look to be the same colour as say early 50s Scarabs et al. 
 

As a matter of interest, and quoting from the book above, in 1966 BR ordered 1290 Scammell Townsman tractor units, 1090 Karrier Bantam Tractor units, and 950 Bedford TK tractor units - all of which would have been delivered in yellow. A significant volume of new vehicles. 

 

 

Can't argue with personal recollections- but, on this one, I am as certain as I can be that maroon and cream preceded yellow, NOT red (carmine) and cream.

 

CJI.

 

[MidlandRed]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

 

Can't argue with personal recollections- but, on this one, I am as certain as I can be that maroon and cream preceded yellow, NOT red (carmine) and cream.

 

CJI.

 

No problem - however, there does not seem to be any specific change to road vehicle specifications (or any initiative to re-brand etc) at that time, but also, thinking about it, I’m not sure why the colour would be changed simply because of a change in coaching stock arrangements? If so, why not paint the road vehicles all over maroon? I suspect the link with coaching stock livery may be more tenuous in reality. I guess until someone can unearth some records we won’t know for sure. Painting requirements, as part of specs for manufacturers like Scammell et al would, no doubt reveal this. 
 

 

[cctransuk]

24 minutes ago, MidlandRed said:

No problem - however, there does not seem to be any specific change to road vehicle specifications (or any initiative to re-brand etc) at that time, but also, thinking about it, I’m not sure why the colour would be changed simply because of a change in coaching stock arrangements? If so, why not paint the road vehicles all over maroon? I suspect the link with coaching stock livery may be more tenuous in reality. I guess until someone can unearth some records we won’t know for sure. Painting requirements, as part of specs for manufacturers like Scammell et al would, no doubt reveal this. 
 

 

 

The answer is common logic - why would BR continue to specify and buy carmine paint just for road vehicles when they were specifying and buying huge quantities of crimson lake for coaching stock?

 

I agree that overall crimson lake for road vehicles might seem the obvious spec., but, without the lining applied to coaching stock, it would have appeared excessively drab.

 

Cream was being used elsewhere with crimson lake - on buildings, etc. - so its use on road vehicles was not unique.

 

I'm sorry - no-one will ever convince me that carmine was used with cream until yellow replaced it.

 

CJI.

[BernardTPM]

Documentary evidence one way or the other would be good.

Stirctly speaking the red BR used on coaches up to 1956 BR was called Crimson, not Carmine, not that that really tells you which shade of crimson it was, of course.