BR Road Vehicle Liveries - Mid 60s

[bécasse]

12 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

The answer is common logic - why would BR continue to specify and buy carmine paint just for road vehicles when they were specifying and buying huge quantities of crimson lake for coaching stock?

 

Because the actual paint specification would almost certainly have been different for road vehicles. Furthermore, the NUR, who represented the men who drove the vehicles, would almost certainly have argued that an all-over maroon scheme would have been less visible and hence less safe than retaining the then current two-tone livery. The recognition that that was an issue was probably the starting point for the development of the all-over yellow livery.

[cctransuk]

10 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

Documentary evidence one way or the other would be good.

Stirctly speaking the red BR used on coaches up to 1956 BR was called Crimson, not Carmine, not that that really tells you which shade of crimson it was, of course.

 

Of course it would - but if that were readily obtainable I doubt that this thread would have been initiated!

 

The colour was also called Blood - which was probably the most accurately descriptive - but Crimson and Carmine have been widely used as long as I've shown an interest in railways.

 

The problem word is Maroon - which was commonly used during the tenure (and since) of the Blood and Custard livery to describe Blood / Crimson / Carmine.

 

CJI.

[cctransuk]

7 minutes ago, bécasse said:

 

Because the actual paint specification would almost certainly have been different for road vehicles. Furthermore, the NUR, who represented the men who drove the vehicles, would almost certainly have argued that an all-over maroon scheme would have been less visible and hence less safe than retaining the then current two-tone livery. The recognition that that was an issue was probably the starting point for the development of the all-over yellow livery.

 

Agreed - which is why the cream element of the livery was retained when the lower colour changed.

 

CJI.

[cctransuk]

10 minutes ago, bécasse said:

 

Because the actual paint specification would almost certainly have been different for road vehicles.

 

True, but the pigment would have been the same - only the medium would have varied according to intended usage.

 

CJI.

[MidlandRed]

On 09/01/2022 at 20:26, Merfyn Jones said:

Well 23 hours and this topic has really raced off.

A lot of the subjects have been covered in a long running thread called "Railway Motors", you can find in 'search'

Can I correct some errors in the replies above.  The B R road vehicle livery from c1949 to about April 1963 was CRIMSON & cream, as used on corridor passenger coaching stock.  Maroon was never used, even after the 1956 changes to the coaches. 

Yellow was used from 1963 only for goods and parcels vehicles, and engineers vehicles were B R loco green, until 1970 when they became yellow as well.

S & D Freightlifters were originally crimson, until a large batch was ordered by the Western Region in chocolate & cream about 1960. I have a suspicion but no proof that the Southern had some green ones (any ideas ?)

 

I hope to give some news to those with an interest in this subject in the near future.

This response from @Merfyn Jones seemed quite conclusive in respect of the colour from circa 1949-1963 for road vehicles (but was buried amongst some other discussions about road vehicles). My original query related to the large batch WR S and D Freightlifters which were in chocolate and cream (just to make things more complicated) and seem to have post dated some delivered in crimson. 

[BernardTPM]

As well as the road vehicles, BR's ordinary containers were also painted in Crimson too until the 1963 change. They had a fair few of them.

Edited February 6, 2022 by BernardTPM

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, MidlandRed said:

This response from @Merfyn Jones seemed quite conclusive in respect of the colour from circa 1949-1963 for road vehicles (but was buried amongst some other discussions about road vehicles). My original query related to the large batch WR S and D Freightlifters which were in chocolate and cream (just to make things more complicated) and seem to have post dated some delivered in crimson. 

 

That response, to the effect that "The B R road vehicle livery from c1949 to about April 1963 was CRIMSON & cream, as used on corridor passenger coaching stock.  Maroon was never used, even after the 1956 changes to the coaches" is by no means conclusive - it is a firm statement, but not one that is supported by any evidence, and which is contrary to the clear recollections of many others with equally good experience of the prototype.

 

This debate is becoming tedious, but I would simply point out that many, many models of BR road vehicles have been produced by reputable companies that are painted in maroon / crimson lake and cream. Presumably, these models are based on some considerable research, and not at the whim of the designers involved.

 

CJI.

[cctransuk]

35 minutes ago, BernardTPM said:

As well as the road vehicles, BR's ordinary containers were also painted in Crimson too until the 1963 change. They had a fair few of them.

 

Just to be clear - my recollection is that containers were blood / crimson / carmine when the coaching stock was so painted, and maroon / crimson lake when that was used for coaching stock.

 

CJI.

[Merfyn Jones]

44 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

 

 

This debate is becoming tedious, but I would simply point out that many, many models of BR road vehicles have been produced by reputable companies that are painted in maroon / crimson lake and cream. Presumably, these models are based on some considerable research, and not at the whim of the designers involved.

 

CJI.

 

I go along with my previous statement that none were Maroon & cream.  Unless evidence can be proved.

One 'reputable' maker produced a Morris J2 van in maroon when the real thing was green, post 1963.

[BernardTPM]

That (dark) green livery is often overlooked.

[BernardTPM]

Modern Railway April 1963 "Towards a B.R. "house style" by Brian Haresnape p.238

"British Railways operate a considerable fleet of road vehicles...The present livery of carmine and cream is a hangover from the days when the same colours were applied to main-line carriages..."

 

The article included a picture of a Scarab and covered trailer in the new yellow with 'freight arrow' and 'Rail freight' in Transport type face.

Edited February 6, 2022 by BernardTPM

[bécasse]

5 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

Modern Railway April 1963 "Towards a B.R. "house style" by Brian Haresnape p.238

"British Railways operate a considerable fleet of road vehicles...The present livery of carmine and cream is a hangover from the days when the same colours were applied to main-line carriages..."

 

....... and Brian Haresnape was a keen and informed observer of the contemporary livery scene. He was most unlikely to have got such a basic (and then current) livery detail wrong.

[BernardTPM]

He was also an advisor to BR's Design Panel so was very much 'in the loop'.

[Hal Nail]

I thought I replied already but just wanted to say thanks for all the info re crimson/maroon. Conclusive enough for my decision!