Re-watched Sink the Bismarck! (1960) again and I'm not sure if I like it as much as I used to.

[Mallard60022]

On 28/01/2022 at 05:09, brossard said:

Yeah, well, getting older and wiser will do that to you.  These war movies from that time were meant to make the audience feel good about beating the baddies.

 

Agree it is a good although I haven't seen it in decades.

 

John

That is really interesting as I have just had a long conversation with a newly acquired (strange term?) German friend, who is 50ish and we were discussing how the War was  remembered and 'taught' in School History. 

Sadly my version of the War was:

my late mum & dad not wanting to talk about it at all (she in the WRENS and he as a Medic in  the push though Italy clearing up after the US Army and AirForce);

those War Comics;

films such as the above mentioned and most of the 50s Black and Whites;

later films such as The Train, The  battle of Britain, Catch 22 and Band of Brothers (yes I know that's TV) and the first bit of Saving Private Ryan (couldn't watch any more after 5 minute of the Beach Landings);

nothing at school except stupid games of Ja## and English at Primary School.

My feelings began to change once I had read a few factual books, one about a German Tank Commander in Russia and one about a RN Gunner on a Destroyer and seeing rather a lot of documentaries. Then I visited Auschwitz-Birkenau in 2004 and got to know some Polish folk quite well. 

Conclusion: any war is absolute s##t for all involved. The Germans have done far better in education, at condemning the history of what made it happen then we might have done. 

I have no interest now in 'glorification of' the whole affair which is sadly perpetuated by certain factions across Europe, not just here, but it is very interesting reading the stuff here about the actual facts.  

Men were always the ones that created war. Some still want to.

Phil

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Mallard60022

[Tankerman]

On 29/01/2022 at 11:14, MarkC said:

Some of the other books by Nicholas Montserrat, detailing his own experiences as an officer serving in sloops & then frigates during WW2, both in the Atlantic & on the East Coast convoys, also cover such things, occasionally in more detail. As the saying has it, war is hell (as graphically illustrated in the Laconia business).

 

To me, the unsung heroes were the officers & crews of the Merchant Navy. At least the RN could fight back...

 

Now almost completely forgotten by this country, without the sacrifice of the men of the Merchant Navy in WWII, Britain would have been defeated by either the end of 1940 or the middle of 1941 at the latest.

 

Much is made of the loss of pilots/crews of Fighter Command in 1940 and Bomber Command later in the war, however the crews of the Merchant Navy suffered losses of around 50% in both 1940 and 1941 and it wasn't until June 1943 that losses dropped much below 25%. 

 

That's not all that's been forgotten.

 

There was no phoney war for the Merchant Navy, the first merchant ship was sunk on the 3rd September 1939 and the last one on the 9th May 1945.

 

All of those crews, officers and men were volunteers, none of them were ever conscripted.

 

Around 45% of the crews, not officers, were what were known then as Lascars from the Indian sub continent, Arabs from such places as Aden and Hong Kong Chinese. They also sailed knowing the odds against them and died along with the others.

 

That the ratio of number engaged to the number of deaths was higher than that for the Army, Navy or Air Force.

 

Apologies if this reads as a bit of a rant, but I spent six years in a dockyard working alongside some of the men who had spent the war at sea and nine years in the Merchant Navy as an Electrical Officer. The seamen were Pakistani, the cooks and stewards were Goanese and the fitters/pumpmen Hong Kong Chinese. I thank God that it wasn't in wartime, but if it had been I would have happily sailed with them as a crew.

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, 62613 said:

On Coventry; the Germans were using radio beams to guide their night bombing force to their targets. You flew down the beam until you had a signal intersected it, then you bombed. The British had found out and were usually able to counter it; but on the night of the Coventry raid, things went wrong and the Germans had a free run on their target 

 

An interesting book on this subject is "Most Secret War" by RV Jones, who was a scientific advisor to the Air Ministry (eventually becoming Assistant Director of Intelligence (Science) there ).  Its a while since I've read the book, but as I recall, the problem with Coventry was that the jamming frequencies were incorrect for that evening, from Intelligence there were two possible targets and the wrong set of frequencies were selected.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_Victor_Jones

 

[MarkC]

7 minutes ago, Tankerman said:

 

Now almost completely forgotten by this country, without the sacrifice of the men of the Merchant Navy in WWII, Britain would have been defeated by either the end of 1940 or the middle of 1941 at the latest.

 

Much is made of the loss of pilots/crews of Fighter Command in 1940 and Bomber Command later in the war, however the crews of the Merchant Navy suffered losses of around 50% in both 1940 and 1941 and it wasn't until June 1943 that losses dropped much below 25%. 

 

That's not all that's been forgotten.

 

There was no phoney war for the Merchant Navy, the first merchant ship was sunk on the 3rd September 1939 and the last one on the 9th May 1945.

 

All of those crews, officers and men were volunteers, none of them were ever conscripted.

 

Around 45% of the crews, not officers, were what were known then as Lascars from the Indian sub continent, Arabs from such places as Aden and Hong Kong Chinese. They also sailed knowing the odds against them and died along with the others.

 

That the ratio of number engaged to the number of deaths was higher than that for the Army, Navy or Air Force.

 

Apologies if this reads as a bit of a rant, but I spent six years in a dockyard working alongside some of the men who had spent the war at sea and nine years in the Merchant Navy as an Electrical Officer. The seamen were Pakistani, the cooks and stewards were Goanese and the fitters/pumpmen Hong Kong Chinese. I thank God that it wasn't in wartime, but if it had been I would have happily sailed with them as a crew.

Well said 

 

Here's another thought; if I have it right - and I think I do - 30,000 men and boys from South Shields went to sea in the MN during WW2. 10,000 of them didn't return.

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, Tankerman said:

 

Now almost completely forgotten by this country, without the sacrifice of the men of the Merchant Navy in WWII, Britain would have been defeated by either the end of 1940 or the middle of 1941 at the latest.

 

Much is made of the loss of pilots/crews of Fighter Command in 1940 and Bomber Command later in the war, however the crews of the Merchant Navy suffered losses of around 50% in both 1940 and 1941 and it wasn't until June 1943 that losses dropped much below 25%. 

 

That's not all that's been forgotten.

 

There was no phoney war for the Merchant Navy, the first merchant ship was sunk on the 3rd September 1939 and the last one on the 9th May 1945.

 

All of those crews, officers and men were volunteers, none of them were ever conscripted.

 

Around 45% of the crews, not officers, were what were known then as Lascars from the Indian sub continent, Arabs from such places as Aden and Hong Kong Chinese. They also sailed knowing the odds against them and died along with the others.

 

That the ratio of number engaged to the number of deaths was higher than that for the Army, Navy or Air Force.

 

Apologies if this reads as a bit of a rant, but I spent six years in a dockyard working alongside some of the men who had spent the war at sea and nine years in the Merchant Navy as an Electrical Officer. The seamen were Pakistani, the cooks and stewards were Goanese and the fitters/pumpmen Hong Kong Chinese. I thank God that it wasn't in wartime, but if it had been I would have happily sailed with them as a crew.

It wasn't just a case of their efforts not being commemorated; in certain areas, (notably Merseyside), after the end of hostilities, overseas seamen were arrested on the flimsiest of grounds, and deported. In many cases, these seamen had been living there for several generations, and had married into the local community.

One of my great-uncles worked on the Atlantic convoys. My nan used to say he spent all his shore-leave drinking; when he recounted tales of burning tankers, I could understand why. He used to say that the worst thing was not being able to stop to try and rescue survivors; to slow down was tantamount to signing your death-warrant.

[Tankerman]

1 hour ago, MarkC said:

Well said 

 

Here's another thought; if I have it right - and I think I do - 30,000 men and boys from South Shields went to sea in the MN during WW2. 10,000 of them didn't return.

 

That figure could be right as South Shields, and the Tyne in general, had a large number of seamen at the time. I have seen a figure for the total number of merchant seamen engaged during WWII as being in the region of 330,000 and the losses being approximately 34,000 dead or missing.

[eastglosmog]

1 hour ago, Tankerman said:

 

Now almost completely forgotten by this country, without the sacrifice of the men of the Merchant Navy in WWII, Britain would have been defeated by either the end of 1940 or the middle of 1941 at the latest.

 

Much is made of the loss of pilots/crews of Fighter Command in 1940 and Bomber Command later in the war, however the crews of the Merchant Navy suffered losses of around 50% in both 1940 and 1941 and it wasn't until June 1943 that losses dropped much below 25%. 

 

That's not all that's been forgotten.

 

There was no phoney war for the Merchant Navy, the first merchant ship was sunk on the 3rd September 1939 and the last one on the 9th May 1945.

 

All of those crews, officers and men were volunteers, none of them were ever conscripted.

 

Around 45% of the crews, not officers, were what were known then as Lascars from the Indian sub continent, Arabs from such places as Aden and Hong Kong Chinese. They also sailed knowing the odds against them and died along with the others.

 

That the ratio of number engaged to the number of deaths was higher than that for the Army, Navy or Air Force.

 

Apologies if this reads as a bit of a rant, but I spent six years in a dockyard working alongside some of the men who had spent the war at sea and nine years in the Merchant Navy as an Electrical Officer. The seamen were Pakistani, the cooks and stewards were Goanese and the fitters/pumpmen Hong Kong Chinese. I thank God that it wasn't in wartime, but if it had been I would have happily sailed with them as a crew.

Forgotten or never known by some, maybe, but I can assure you that myself and my friends growing up alongside Southampton Water in the 50s and 60s knew what we owed to the men of the Merchant Navy.

[OnTheBranchline]

I'm surprised, we've gotten this far and no one has said about "Spitire was flashy but the Hurricane was the workhorse".

 

Wick lit...

[alastairq]

 

My first ship, MV British Hero, built Lithgows, 1954, scrapped in Spain, 1972.

 

On some of my subsequent ships, the 'ol' man' [master] had, in the ship's safe, sealed orders which were changed periodically. Known [unofficially] as DEMS orders. In times of emergency or conflict, these would be opened, and we would find ourselves,instead of being a humble civilian merchant vessel, we had become a part of the RFA.  This applied to most ships belonging to the BP Tanker Co Ltd, I believe?

One aspect of this was the insignia that the ship's officers & engineers [& Chief Steward, and RO] wore....Instead of the normal merchant navy insignias of the diamond loop, we had the round loop as per the Royal Navy. I was led to believe that this was due to becoming effectively, RFAs....and applied to many, [but not all?] UK based shipping lines. However, this was all a lot of years ago now, and my memory fades somewhat....

 

 

 

[JeremyC]

Someone else might have mentioned this (and I've missed it) regarding Merchant Navy personnel, but until May 1941, merchant seamen sailing aboard British vessels attacked and sunk by enemy action received no pay (wages) from the moment that their ship sank. If the seaman was fortunate to survive the sinking only to spend days or weeks in an open lifeboat hoping for rescue, it was regarded as "non-working time", the seaman was not paid for that time because their employer, the shipping company who had owned the lost vessel, no longer required their services.

https://www.gatheringvoices.org.uk/post/ship-sinks-pay-stops-why-we-were-inspired...

Edited February 7, 2022 by JeremyC

[Bon Accord]

28 minutes ago, alastairq said:

 

My first ship, MV British Hero, built Lithgows, 1954, scrapped in Spain, 1972.

 

On some of my subsequent ships, the 'ol' man' [master] had, in the ship's safe, sealed orders which were changed periodically. Known [unofficially] as DEMS orders. In times of emergency or conflict, these would be opened, and we would find ourselves,instead of being a humble civilian merchant vessel, we had become a part of the RFA.  This applied to most ships belonging to the BP Tanker Co Ltd, I believe?

One aspect of this was the insignia that the ship's officers & engineers [& Chief Steward, and RO] wore....Instead of the normal merchant navy insignias of the diamond loop, we had the round loop as per the Royal Navy. I was led to believe that this was due to becoming effectively, RFAs....and applied to many, [but not all?] UK based shipping lines. However, this was all a lot of years ago now, and my memory fades somewhat....

 

A large number of BP ships - together with a number of other companies which had vessels which could be regarded as strategic in wartime - were built with a Government subsidy in exchange for certain construction requirements to be met e.g. strengthened decks suitable for gun emplacements, degaussing gear fitted etc. A DEMS safe was also a standard fitting.

As I remember the Valour and the Courage had a different boiler/turbine setup to their sisters and accordingly could develop a lot more shp so that they could be used as fast fleet oilers. This apparently required an annual trial for the benefit of the MOD which basically amounted to a full speed run in excess of their normal service speed.

Later on, the 70's built River class 25k product tankers were designated to be suitable to be STUFT and quite a few of them did exercises with the RN/RFA to exercise their suitability to act as replenishment oilers. That led to modifications such as additional (higher) tank suctions being installed to permit the carriage of aviation fuel to be pumped over for immediate use, extra steel pads around strongpoints for RAS gear etc. This of course led to 8 of the class being taken up from trade and being sent south during the Falklands unpleasantness.

With regard to the braid, the official term for the loops was "executive curle" and BP and a few other companies had it. There were many stories circulating with regard to why it was used (and I'm sure it was the same in the likes of the other companies which used it) and the common one was that it was something to do with wartime service, which I was never inclined to believe as many companies and their men suffered dreadfully and I think it would be somewhat callous to single out a few.

Adoption of diamonds/curles etc was of course upto the company concerned and did not require any official sanction either way, but on that point it's worth remembering that most British companies used 3/8" braid rather than the RN standard of 1/2". Use of the latter braid in such a way that it could be confused for the RN variety was a criminal offence unless a warrant or an Order in Council from the Monarch was issued and that would of course be recorded somewhere. I've never seen or heard of such evidence for any company, even BPTC.

Some companies adopted curles for the prestige factor, but with BPTC I'm more inclined to believe that we had them because the company was effectively Government owned and it was normal for those ships/crews in government service to use Curles instead of diamonds.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Bon Accord

[alastairq]

The shipping companies were engaged on contract by the UK government [ministry of summat-or-other?}, so I presume, once sunk, their contract payment ceased as well?

[MarkC]

2 hours ago, Tankerman said:

 

That figure could be right as South Shields, and the Tyne in general, had a large number of seamen at the time. I have seen a figure for the total number of merchant seamen engaged during WWII as being in the region of 330,000 and the losses being approximately 34,000 dead or missing.

That actually ties in with another number I have heard in the past - that almost 30% of the MN crew losses came from South Shields alone.

 

Humbling stuff - and one reason why, every time I'm up at Mill Dam, I take time to stop & pay my respects at the MN memorial there. So many of them, still 'on passage' 

Edited February 7, 2022 by MarkC

[Bon Accord]

7 minutes ago, JeremyC said:

Someone else might have mentioned this (and I've missed it) regarding Merchant Navy personnel, but until May 1941, merchant seamen sailing aboard British vessels attacked and sunk by enemy action received no pay (wages) from the moment that their ship sank. If the seaman was fortunate to survive the sinking only to spend days or weeks in an open lifeboat hoping for rescue, it was regarded as "non-working time", the seaman was not paid for that time because their employer, the shipping company who had owned the lost vessel, no longer required their services.

https://www.gatheringvoices.org.uk/post/ship-sinks-pay-stops-why-we-were-inspired...

 

That was finally sorted out but only for the duration of the war alas, postwar things technically reverted and companies weren't obliged to pay you should your ship be lost. 

The advent of company contracts and the general improvement in terms and conditions postwar thankfully superceeded that, but some outfits still stick to the letter of the law.

The loss of the Pool Fisher in 1979 being a case in point - all crew (dead or alive) were taken off pay from the day she sank and the relatives of those lost received nothing from the company beyond voyage pay upto the day of her loss.

[alastairq]

According to BP's own website, the British Tanker Company [as BP tankers were known back then, until the early 1950's].....lost 50 ships, with 657 lives lost, between 1939 & 1945.

 

https://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/news-and-insights/reimagining-energy/bp-shipping-a-centenary.html

[MarkC]

16 minutes ago, JeremyC said:

Someone else might have mentioned this (and I've missed it) regarding Merchant Navy personnel, but until May 1941, merchant seamen sailing aboard British vessels attacked and sunk by enemy action received no pay (wages) from the moment that their ship sank. If the seaman was fortunate to survive the sinking only to spend days or weeks in an open lifeboat hoping for rescue, it was regarded as "non-working time", the seaman was not paid for that time because their employer, the shipping company who had owned the lost vessel, no longer required their services.

Correct - and utterly disgusting

[MarkC]

11 minutes ago, Bon Accord said:

 

A large number of BP ships - together with a number of other companie's vessels which could be regarded as strategic in wartime - were built with a Government subsidy in exchange for certain construction requirements to be met e.g. strengthened decks suitable for gun emplacements, degaussing gear fitted etc. A DEMS safe was also a standard fitting.

As I remember the Valour and the Courage had a different boiler/turbine setup to their sisters and accordingly could develop a lot more shp so that they could be used as fast fleet oilers. This apparently required an annual trial for the benefit of the MOD which basically amounted to a full speed run in excess of their normal service speed.

Later on, the 70's built River class 25k product tankers were designated to be suitable to be STUFT and quite a few of them did exercises with the RN/RFA to exercise their suitability to act as replenishment oilers. That led to modifications such as additional (higher) tank suctions being installed to permit the carriage of aviation fuel to be pumped over for immediate use, extra steel pads around strongpoints for RAS gear etc. This of course led to 8 of the class being taken up from trade and being sent south during the Falklands unpleasantness.

With regard to the braid, the official term for the loops was "executive curle" and BP and a few other companies had it. There were many stories circulating with regard to why it was used (and I'm sure it was the same in the likes of the other companies which used it) and the common one was that it was something to do with wartime service, which I was never inclined to believe as many companies and their men suffered dreadfully and I think it would be somewhat callous to single out a few.

Adoption of diamonds/curles etc was of course upto the company concerned and did not require any official sanction either way, but on that point it's worth remembering that most British companies used 3/8" braid rather than the RN standard of 1/2". Use of the latter braid in such a way that it could be confused for the RN variety was a criminal offence unless a warrant or an Order in Council from the Monarch was issued and that would of course be recorded somewhere. I've never seen or heard of such evidence for any company, even BPTC.

Some companies adopted curles for the prestige factor, but with BPTC I'm more inclined to believe that we had them because the company was effectively Government owned and it was normal for those ships/crews in government service to use Curles instead of diamonds.

Clan Line was another Company who were granted permission to use the Executive Curle. As an aside, when Clan Line & Union Castle merged into the British & Commonwealth Shipping Group, it caused no end of winding up of the UC men, who up until then used standard MN diamonds!

[OnTheBranchline]

1 hour ago, MarkC said:

Correct - and utterly disgusting

 

Are you really surprised?

[MarkC]

2 minutes ago, OnTheBranchline said:

 

Are you really surprised?

Nope - that's shipowners all over, with one or two honourable exceptions. Mercenary shysters...

[Bon Accord]

6 minutes ago, MarkC said:

Nope - that's shipowners all over, with one or two honourable exceptions. Mercenary shysters...

 

As the old saying goes: you never meet a poor one!

[Rivercider]

5 hours ago, Tankerman said:

 

Now almost completely forgotten by this country, without the sacrifice of the men of the Merchant Navy in WWII, Britain would have been defeated by either the end of 1940 or the middle of 1941 at the latest.

 

Much is made of the loss of pilots/crews of Fighter Command in 1940 and Bomber Command later in the war, however the crews of the Merchant Navy suffered losses of around 50% in both 1940 and 1941 and it wasn't until June 1943 that losses dropped much below 25%. 

 

That's not all that's been forgotten.

 

There was no phoney war for the Merchant Navy, the first merchant ship was sunk on the 3rd September 1939 and the last one on the 9th May 1945.

 

All of those crews, officers and men were volunteers, none of them were ever conscripted.

 

Around 45% of the crews, not officers, were what were known then as Lascars from the Indian sub continent, Arabs from such places as Aden and Hong Kong Chinese. They also sailed knowing the odds against them and died along with the others.

 

That the ratio of number engaged to the number of deaths was higher than that for the Army, Navy or Air Force.

 

Apologies if this reads as a bit of a rant, but I spent six years in a dockyard working alongside some of the men who had spent the war at sea and nine years in the Merchant Navy as an Electrical Officer. The seamen were Pakistani, the cooks and stewards were Goanese and the fitters/pumpmen Hong Kong Chinese. I thank God that it wasn't in wartime, but if it had been I would have happily sailed with them as a crew.

It is one aspect of WWII that I learnt about a long time ago, possibly by chance. Back in the 1970s I used pocket money to buy 2nd hand paperback war stories. Among my first purchases I randomly acquired were 'Trawlers go to War', and 'The Coal-Scuttle Brigade' which tells of the colliers sailing from the North East to London and the South Coast ports. I still have them now on my book shelf.

 

cheers 

 

 

 

 

[jwealleans]

1 hour ago, Rivercider said:

'Trawlers go to War', and 'The Coal-Scuttle Brigade'

 

Two excellent books which I still recall reading and re-reading as a boy.  Trawlers go to War especially.

[Ozexpatriate]

8 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

I have just had a long conversation with a newly acquired (strange term?) German friend, who is 50ish and we were discussing how the War was  remembered and 'taught' in School History. 

A school mate's father served in the Wehrmacht (I believe) as part of a tank crew. He became a physician, at some point emigrating to Australia.

[Ozexpatriate]

8 hours ago, 62613 said:

The German raider Kormoran captured the Blue Funnel cargo liner Automedon in the Indian Ocean in late 1940 ...

I may have the raider's name wrong.

According to this Wikipedia page, Kormoran did not reach the Indian Ocean until April 1941. Kormoran would later be (in)famous for sinking HMAS Sydney in November 1941.

 

The Automedon page indicates the raider was the Atlantis.

Quote

At about 0700 hrs on 11 November 1940, the German auxiliary cruiser Atlantis intercepted Automedon about 250 nautical miles (460 km) northwest of Sumatra, approaching on a heading that would bring the two ships close together.

 

[62613]

7 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

An interesting book on this subject is "Most Secret War" by RV Jones, who was a scientific advisor to the Air Ministry (eventually becoming Assistant Director of Intelligence (Science) there ).  Its a while since I've read the book, but as I recall, the problem with Coventry was that the jamming frequencies were incorrect for that evening, from Intelligence there were two possible targets and the wrong set of frequencies were selected.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_Victor_Jones

 

I've seen Professor Jones say that, in a documentary on Freeview TV. as another MN man, I endorse everything that Tankerman says