BR(W) Hall Class - Bachmann or Hornby

[geoffers]

Am a BR modeller with a layout based on the Somerset and Dorset. Occasionally I have a BR(S) session and a BR(W) session. For the latter I am asking for advice as to which Hall Class 4-6-0 is recommended. I have a Grange (and a Manor on order) but fancy a Hall as well. I am wary of Hornby locos nowadays as their back-to-backs often seem to need adjusting and though I have got most of them working a few continue to short out on Peco Unifrog and Electrofrog points (am DCC but it is only Hornby locos that do this). So would prefer a Bachmann Hall but I believe there are issues with the "Modified Hall". Any ideas please?  Thanks.

Edited January 28, 2022 by geoffers

[Steamport Southport]

Bachmann all day long. The Hornby version is very basic IMHO.

 

The latest issue of the Modified Halls are fine. It was a batch before that which had the wrong front end.

 

Refs 31-785 and 31- 786 are the new version.

 

For reference.

 

https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/70445/31-785-WSL-Bachmann-Modified-Hall-Loco-6990-Witherslack-Hall

 

 

 

Jason

[geoffers]

Thank you.

[cypherman]

Hi Geoffers,

Triang is my suggestion. Then upgrade it to how you want it. IMHO they are a damned sight more reliable if not almost bullet proof. Plus it is loads of fun upgrading them. Ok yes it will never win any medals for perfect accuracy but hey it is a great engine.

[Steamport Southport]

7 minutes ago, Coombe Vale said:

Personally I'd go for the Hornby one. Okay, it might not be as detailed, but they are reliable and in my opinion, have greater pulling power. I have three, Albert Hall, Kneller Hall and Tito Hall, the last being a 1966 model and still going strong.

 

They're not the Hornby model we are talking about though.

 

It's the newish Railroad one that was made originally for the Harry Potter train set.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/60228/hornby_r3170_class_49xx_4_6_0_4901_adderley_hall_in_gwr_green_railroad_range/stockdetail

 

 

 

 

Now compare it to this. No comparison. Mine can easily pull full length trains and is fully DCC compatable.

 

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/155500/bachmann_branchline_30_525loco_class_49xx_hall_4_6_0_4965_rood_ashton_hall_in_great_western_green_split_from_3/stockdetail

 

 

 

BTW I have a Kneller Hall and Hagley Hall from the late 1970s. Poor model even by 1970s standards and was ditched from the catalogue about 1983.

 

 

Jason

[Kris]

If you go for the Bachmann one, make sure that you pick up a newer one. The older ones are not DCC compatible without work. 

[geoffers]

Thanks guys. Tbh I was thinking of the new/newer Bachmann products rather than the older versions. I know that some modellers raised questions over the front end of the Bachmann Modified Hall when it was originally released but have heard these issues have been resolved with the latest releases - Witherslack Hall and Burton Agnes Hall. Shame I am not keen on the visual effect of the Hawksworth tender.

[The Johnster]

Bachmann have retooled both body and chassis on all the models they inherited from Mainline, who used split chassis current collection on their steam outline models.  Nowt wrong with this, but they used in connection with a feeble pancake motor that had to run at insane rpms to develop what was usually still not enough grunt to pull scale loads, and gear it down to acceptable (again, matter of opinion) slow running with poor quality plastic spur cog gears.  The split pickup meant that the axle centre sections were plastic and the stub axles that were part of the wheels were metal, transferring power to the half-chassis blocks and eventually wirelessly to the motor terminals, again nothing wrong with this in principle but the materials used were poor quality and not up to the job.  Any that have not failed at the plastic centre/metal stub axle interface yet are on borrowed time, a well known failing with them.

 

Bachmann chassis (I don't have a Hall) are superb and reliable runners that will give you many years of service; they feature traditional mazak blocks and can motors driving an idler shaft through a traditional worm and cog setup, which gears down another cog on the driven axle, the entire assembly being contained in a cradle/gearbox assembly that enusres proper meshing.  As a general impression and not an objective observation, my opinion is that Bachmann's Hall is a better model than Hornby's and that Bachmann's QC is better than Hornby's, and that these are some of the reasons for their costing more by and large.  They hold their resale value better as well.  There is absolutely no need to let your knowledge of the failings of Mainline mechanisms affect your view of current Bachamnns'; they are a completely different beast nowadays and as good as it is reasonable to expect from volume produced RTR!

 

With the Hornbys, a Hall has been in the catalogue since Triang days, and I have lost track of the body and chassis toolings.  I would find the old model as worked up by Cypherman a bit too crude; boiler skirts, stamped motion, no brake detail, and so on, but it's certainly bombproof reliable.  The later the model the better detailed it is; not sure if there was ever a tender drive version but if there was, my advice would be to avoid it like the plague! 

[Steamport Southport]

The old Hornby Hall tooling ended up being changed into the awful Saint in the mid 1980s.

 

I think the main change was the old style cab and fitting of the County 4-4-0 tender (with tender drive). I don't think they even bothered with the larger wheels and splashers.

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_details.asp?itemid=653

 

Must be up there with the Lima Crab as being one of the worst models of the modern era (post 1970s).

 

 

Jason

[1466]

I have 2 Bachman Halls and a Hornby ( Railroad ) Hall . In my opinion , all 3 are good models which are reliable and pull well . There’s not much to chose between them .

The Bachmann’s are not the “modified “ hall but the original engine . The Bachmans are not Mainline but   have proper mechanics .

I recall the Bachman being compared favourably with a Mitchell kit built version  in MRJ and that’s high praise .

Re the Hornby model , I particularly wanted one with the small :3, 500 gallon tender . I seem to recall a thread which debated whether this is one of Hornby’s best . I think it is a cracking model . 

Edited January 30, 2022 by 1466
Added “much”

[geoffers]

Thank you all for your help and comments. The decision has been made. A Bachmann "Modified"  Hall, 6990 "Witherslack" Hall, as modified and weathered by Steve Johnson at Grimy Times has been purchased. Hopefully my GWR thirst has been slaked. I just hope that fitting a non-sound decoder will be straightforward.

Edited February 1, 2022 by geoffers

[1466]

39 minutes ago, geoffers said:

Thank you all for your help and comments. The decision has been made. A Bachmann "Modified"  Hall, 6990 "Witherslack" Hall, as modified and weathered by Steve Johnson at Grimy Times has been purchased. Hopefully my GWR thirst has been slaked. I just hope that fitting a non-sound decoder will be straightforward.

Good call ! Please let us know how you get on .

[geoffers]

So to follow on 1466's request here is the story. 

 

1) Model arrives by courier, well packed, and all is ok. Beautifully weathered, as always, by Steve. Goosebumps by just looking at it. Even the wife says "Oooh that's good". First time she has said that to me for a while .

 

2) The bit I was NOT looking forward to given my recent disasters with modelling. First the body removal. I was expecting this to be very tight but after removing the three fixing screws (underneath the front bogie and underneath the cab) the  body came off quite easily.

 

3) Which decoder? My usual choice is Zimo but have none to hand but do have some Zen from DCC Concepts, a Gaugemaster Opti26, and a Bachmann. The decoder plug is in a strange spot on the Bachmann "Modified Hall" being underneath the cab very close to the back body fixing screws, Was hoping a Zen Blue+ direct fit decoder would have fitted in this spot but it is too big. Eventually settled for the Gaugemaster. Decoder fitted and wires tucked away in a channel alongside the motor that Bachmann had fitted for this purpose although it was a little difficult to tuck in the wires close to the plug. But it is done. The body then fitted  back and was quite easy. That surprised me but then the fun began!

 

4) The back screws fitted back in but the front screw would not engage. Eventually decided to leave front fixing screw off and secured back screws with nail varnish as an extra safeguard against them working loose. The front end of the loco does lift up if you hoick it up but it looks ok when settled on the track.. 

 

5) The loco was a bit stodgy to start with but a sparse drop of oil on the motion and a clean of the loco wheels helped a lot and then a 30 minute running-in session either way. Now running quite smoothly.

 

6) The tender - well it has that awful loco-tender connection and this one is the worst one I have encountered. Eventually took off the tender brake gear to gain better access and it has helped but there is a definite knack to this and, unfortunately, needs a lot of handling of loco and tender. Fortunately Bachmann locos are more robust than some other makes so nothing has yet fallen off. Also trimmed off the small mushroom-shaped projections at the front of the tender which act as the real-life loco-tender dampers as these can cause issues going round curves and trimmed off the loco sandpipes as these can be little b*gg*rs that snag. 

 

7) So a simple job made much more difficult by unexpected issues - the sort that sometimes, perhaps more than sometimes, make you wish this was not your hobby. 

 

8) But at the end of the day it is working.

 

Ta da 

 

PS - Accurascale's Manor next in line. I do hope it will be easier.

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by geoffers