MIDLAND RAILWAY DIAGRAM D 397 HORSE BOX

[bbishop]

In 1897 the Midland & South Western Junction Railway ordered a batch of horseboxes from the Oldbury Railway Carriage Co.  These were based on the Midland Railway diagram D 397, originally produced in 1875!  Ok, the M&SWJn version had oil axleboxes so a slight upgrade over 22 years!!  I've had a search on the webby thing but can't find a supplier of the source vehicle in 4mm.  Can anyone help?

It will be for Southwark Bridge, our P4 layout set in 1912.  The horsebox will contain nags for one of the racecourses on LSWR territory, most likely Hurst Park.  We choose Hurst Park because it was rather a working class outfit with the punters not requiring a first class train - and we don't have a first class train on the roster.  We just run a couple of specials to Hampton Court.

 

Bill

[wagonman]

I think you're out of luck, Bill. The only model of an MSWJR horse box that I know of is the MSC kit for the MRC&W design (very similar to the Cambrian version) but that was only available in 7mm.

 

Correction: Taff Vale Models produce a MR D397 kit, but once again only in 7mm scale.

[Regularity]

Was this a MR design, or a contractor’s standard design? I ask as the MId Suffolk had a horse box which looked like a GER design which looked like some on the EWJR which looked like the LTSR horse boxes available on Shapeways from “Rue d’Etropal” (Simon Dawson).

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Regularity
Typo

[bbishop]

Thanks for looking Richard, I knew about the MRC&W model being only in 7mm. 

 

The history of M&SWJn horseboxes is in the third volume of the history published by Wild Swan.  I doubt if the early horseboxes would have been allowed on LSWR express trains - 8' 6" wheelbase?!?  Which would leave me with the MRC&W vehicles reproducing the Cambrian Railways' design and Oldbury RCCo the MR D397 design.  The second hand Midland Railway D398 vehicles were acquired too late for our timeframe.

 

Bill

Edited February 19, 2022 by bbishop

[DayReturn]

David Geen produced an etched brass kit for the D397 horse box.  It may have been taken on from Alan Gibson, as was his D402 CCT I think.  David has retired now I believe. 

[DayReturn]

His 2017 list;

[DayReturn]

And no I’m not parting with my as yet unmade one, not for a while anyway!

[Compound2632]

Mousa Models list the longer D399 horsebox which might, I suppose, be the starting point for a kitbash though converting the coupe grooms' compartment to a full compartment might be challengring. If you have to start from scratch, it might be worth asking for a scan of Midland Railway Study Centre item 88-D0652, Drg. 489.

[jwealleans]

David is stlll at the same address and occasionally producing things - it might be worth a letter to see what he has.

[bbishop]

Thanks everybody.  I found an e-mail and have sent David a request.  I would be happy with just the etchings as the M&SWJn fitted oil axleboxes and I can probably bluff a set of LSWR buffers.   I'm comfortable with the slight modifications  to the bodywork, but my skill level won't let me modify a "large" horsebox into a "small" one.

Bill

[billbedford]

On 18/02/2022 at 16:19, bbishop said:

In 1897 the Midland & South Western Junction Railway ordered a batch of horseboxes from the Oldbury Railway Carriage Co.  These were based on the Midland Railway diagram D 397,

 

On 22/02/2022 at 23:17, Compound2632 said:

Mousa Models list the longer D399 horsebox which might, I suppose, be the starting point for a kitbash though converting the coupe grooms' compartment to a full compartment might be challengring. If you have to start from scratch, it might be worth asking for a scan of Midland Railway Study Centre item 88-D0652, Drg. 489.

 

I can do 3 different MR horseboxes, D.397,398 & 399. The later is the only one that has been requested lately but tools for the other two exist. -- Just don't ask for a D.400. 

 

It's probably worth down loading the pdf of the available etches for your favourite pre-grouping railway, but note that the M&SWR is in the LMS list. 

Edited February 25, 2022 by billbedford

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, billbedford said:

I can do 3 different MR horseboxes, D.397,398 & 399. The later is the only one that has been requested lately but tools for the other two exist. -- Just don't ask for a D.400. 

 

Now there's interesting. My sympathies on the D400 - it would be a nightmare; tumblehome to the groom's and luggage compartments, flat side to the drop door for the horse compartment - and what does go on up at the eves? The diagram and photographs part company. The Midland railway Study Centre does have a copy of the drawing.

[billbedford]

I always wondered how they kept the roof watertight. 

 

Is the drawing available?

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, billbedford said:

I always wondered how they kept the roof watertight. 

 

Is the drawing available?

 

It's not one I have a scan of, which implies that it's not been scanned, although there may be microfiche copies that have been digitised. That might have changed by now; there is a rolling programme of scanning drawings but they're brought in in batches from off-site storage rather than being stored at the Silk Mill. The thing to do would be to enquire of Dave Harris at the Midland Railway Study Centre (email address at the very bottom of the page: enquiries@midlandrailwaystudycentre.org.uk). 

 

It's drawing 1214, item 88-D0070; there's also drawing 2345, item 88-D0244 for the similar round-panelled D401 horsebox.

Edited February 25, 2022 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

On a point of statistics, the 16 ft straight-sided horseboxes of D397 were by some margin the most numerous, with 249 built 1883-87, along with 62 of basically the same design but more antique suspension, built 1875-80 but mostly replaced by the mid 1890s. The 19' 6" straight-sided vehicles of D399 were the next most numerous, 101 built 1886/7. There were only 55 of the wider version of the 16 ft horsebox, D398, built 1891/6 and 70 of the 20 ft ones, D400, built 1897/9.  There were 65 of Bain's version of the 20 ft horsebox, D401, built 1906-21, all replacing older vehicles. There was a total of 471 horseboxes by 1903, which tallies with all the 1875-80 and earlier horseboxes having been replaced.

Edited February 25, 2022 by Compound2632

[bbishop]

On 25/02/2022 at 09:54, billbedford said:

 

 

I can do 3 different MR horseboxes, D.397,398 & 399. The later is the only one that has been requested lately but tools for the other two exist. -- Just don't ask for a D.400. 

 

It's probably worth down loading the pdf of the available etches for your favourite pre-grouping railway, but note that the M&SWR is in the LMS list. 

Bill,

I could only find D399 on your website.  It would be courteous to give David Geen a few days to respond to my e-mail, then I should get in touch.  Bill

[billbedford]

You need to download one the pdf lists. It's easier for me to deal with orders from these lists if you open an account on the website. 

[wagonman]

They're definitely there – 397, 398 and 399!

 

 

[jonhall]

On 18/02/2022 at 16:19, bbishop said:

It will be for Southwark Bridge, our P4 layout set in 1912.  The horsebox will contain nags for one of the racecourses on LSWR territory, most likely Hurst Park.  We choose Hurst Park because it was rather a working class outfit with the punters not requiring a first class train - and we don't have a first class train on the roster.  We just run a couple of specials to Hampton Court.

 

Bill

 

Was Hurst Park used much in 1912? certainly in later days, there was only racing once a year on One of the Bank Holidays in May - but I'm too lazy to go and check if it was Mayday or Whitsun.

 

Jon

[bbishop]

Jon, I have access to special traffic notices in 1914.  There were races at Hurst Park in July, November and December, so I'm guessing monthly (ish).  Interestingly nags from the west country were unboxed at Esher and walked to Hurst Park.  Of course Newmarket etc. nags walked from Hampton Court.  Bill

[WFPettigrew]

On 28/02/2022 at 22:36, billbedford said:

You need to download one the pdf lists. It's easier for me to deal with orders from these lists if you open an account on the website. 

Hi Bill 

 

Further to the emails I sent regarding Furness Railway carriages on the pdf lists, I have now opened an account, but cannot see how to then actually order something which doesn't appear on the main site?

 

All the best

 

Neil 

[jonhall]

46 minutes ago, bbishop said:

Jon, I have access to special traffic notices in 1914.  There were races at Hurst Park in July, November and December, so I'm guessing monthly (ish).  Interestingly nags from the west country were unboxed at Esher and walked to Hurst Park.  Of course Newmarket etc. nags walked from Hampton Court.  Bill

 

Racehorse traffic is probably quite an interesting subject in its own right - I suspect Esher made a lot of sense as the infrastructure (and stable hands etc) would have been established for Sandown, and it wouldn't have been much of an inconvenience to walk them to Hurst Park from there.

 

Any idea how Kempton's GG's arrived?

 

Jon

[bbishop]

Jon, Kempton Park (Paddock Siding), although trains could be held at Sunbury.  Bill

[bbishop]

I've had a charming e-mail from David Geen.  Neither he nor his wife are particularly well at the moment, but he hopes to look out etches next week.  It means a visit to the shed.  Bill

[RectoryLane]

Re Neil’s question about ordering from Mousa. Bill Bedford’s off piste lists indicate the how as copied below. Hope this helps. Kevin

 

“To order, first check that the items require are not available in the main
lists, if not email Mousa Modes with a list of your requirements. You will be
sent a copy of your order which will be put on hold, until the preparations for
etching are completed, when you will be sent an invoice.”