ELECTROFROG POINTS

[greggieboy]

Hi,guys,I am planning a new layout using Electrofrog points and Code 75 track for the first time.The reasons being better running over points and a better look of the sleepers in height and spacing.
      The layout will be analogue DC and not DCC.
My question is, do I have to make any electrical changes in wiring the layout  because of the Electrofrog points,(as opposed to insulfrog) as I seem to remember seeing alterations being made to the underside of these points in the past.
      Thanks in advance.

[Graham108]

Well the answer is you don't have to make any changes but it helps if you do; i.e wire the frog to a switchable power supply and make alterations to the switch blades accordingly.

[Brian Indge]

And also make sure you use isolating fishplates at the frog end of any crossovers.

[greggieboy]

1 hour ago, Graham108 said:

Well the answer is you don't have to make any changes but it helps if you do; i.e wire the frog to a switchable power supply and make alterations to the switch blades accordingly.

Thanks Graham but you are talking to a complete novice when it comes to electrics....how to do that and what would i need  for each point are my next questions !!! (sorry to be such a dunce )....i understand the individual parts of the points but not what physically needs to be done to each part.

[greggieboy]

1 hour ago, Brian Indge said:

And also make sure you use isolating fishplates at the frog end of any crossovers.

Hi Brian thanks for your reply.Please see my reply to Graham and you may understand what you are dealing with !!!! Lol.

[Graham108]

A simple Google search throws up lots of examples - here's one - 

 

[greggieboy]

Thank you Graham 👍👍

[Pete the Elaner]

3 hours ago, Graham108 said:

Well the answer is you don't have to make any changes but it helps if you do; i.e wire the frog to a switchable power supply and make alterations to the switch blades accordingly.

 

As above, they will work out of the box (or else they cannot be sold 'ready to run') but modifying them will make them more reliable.

It's the point blades which get dirty & lose contact. Unless the point is very old/dirty/damaged, these can be cleaned but modifying them makes a quick once-over with a track rubber or cleaning coach all you ever need to do.

 

Many people, including Peco themselves, refer to the re-wiring as 'modifying them for DCC', which I find frustrating because it is to increase reliability & reduce short circuits, both of which are desirable for DC & DCC.

[greggieboy]

3 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

As above, they will work out of the box (or else they cannot be sold 'ready to run') but modifying them will make them more reliable.

It's the point blades which get dirty & lose contact. Unless the point is very old/dirty/damaged, these can be cleaned but modifying them makes a quick once-over with a track rubber or cleaning coach all you ever need to do.

 

Many people, including Peco themselves, refer to the re-wiring as 'modifying them for DCC', which I find frustrating because it is to increase reliability & reduce short circuits, both of which are desirable for DC & DCC.

Thanks for the reply Pete.....just thought I read somewhere that sometimes locos can  'short out' on the point by touching both frogs at once ???

[RobinofLoxley]

Greggie, there are numerous threads on here bearing a lot of info about this. Spend some time reading some of them.

 

I would then reccommend a visit to Brian Lambert's web pages to read up on layout electrics. Otherwise you will be in over your head very quickly. 

[greggieboy]

Thank you RobinofLoxley,I will definitely take that advice.👍👍

[ikcdab]

Going for electrofrog is definitely worth it but there is some learning to do.

The frog has to change polarity as the blades switch as shown in the linked video. If you make the modification, then you need to provide that switching yourself such can be done by a wide variety of ways. It's more complex than using the points out-of-the -box, but far more reliable and much better.

What you are doing is tackling the next major step in our hobby, understanding the wiring and electrics.  I really enjoy the electrical side and the wiring and whilst it can seem daunting at first, if you just take it one step at a time, it's straightforward.  Do your research and ask lots of questions on here!

[Pete the Elaner]

13 hours ago, greggieboy said:

Thanks for the reply Pete.....just thought I read somewhere that sometimes locos can  'short out' on the point by touching both frogs at once ???

 

Not the frogs (there is only 1 frog), but the point blade.

When used unmodified, the frog & both point blades are all electrically connected. The open point blade will be close to the running rail & these will be opposite polarities. A wheelset with a tight back to back can be a little sloppy & touch the 2, causing a short, although any wheelset capable of doing this would probably also cause derailments elsewhere.

Short circuits are always best avoided but with DC, you just get a spark & a hesitation if the train is moving past the issue area.

 

[greggieboy]

48 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Not the frogs (there is only 1 frog), but the point blade.

When used unmodified, the frog & both point blades are all electrically connected. The open point blade will be close to the running rail & these will be opposite polarities. A wheelset with a tight back to back can be a little sloppy & touch the 2, causing a short, although any wheelset capable of doing this would probably also cause derailments elsewhere.

Short circuits are always best avoided but with DC, you just get a spark & a hesitation if the train is moving past the issue area.

 

Ok Pete,thank you. 👍👍

[greggieboy]

1 hour ago, ikcdab said:

Going for electrofrog is definitely worth it but there is some learning to do.

The frog has to change polarity as the blades switch as shown in the linked video. If you make the modification, then you need to provide that switching yourself such can be done by a wide variety of ways. It's more complex than using the points out-of-the -box, but far more reliable and much better.

What you are doing is tackling the next major step in our hobby, understanding the wiring and electrics.  I really enjoy the electrical side and the wiring and whilst it can seem daunting at first, if you just take it one step at a time, it's straightforward.  Do your research and ask lots of questions on here!

Thank you for the advice Ian.....yes,it is daunting at the moment as electrics have never been my strongpoint,but am getting excellent advice on here so hopefully will work it all out in the end. Just frustrating at times.

[Jeff Smith]

If you are planning to use small radius electrofrog points and adding jumpers between the fixed parts of the point blades and stock rails you will need to cut the point blades between the jumper and the frog as they do not come 'gapped'.  About the only way to do this is with a thin slitting disc in a mini-drill.  The 0-16.5 points are the same.

[Harlequin]

13 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

If you are planning to use small radius electrofrog points and adding jumpers between the fixed parts of the point blades and stock rails you will need to cut the point blades between the jumper and the frog as they do not come 'gapped'.  About the only way to do this is with a thin slitting disc in a mini-drill.  The 0-16.5 points are the same.

 

That's not quite correct. The current Small Radius Code 75 Electrofrogs definitely do have insulation gaps between the point blades and the closure rails and cuttable links underneath. I'm looking at one right now.

 

Peco have changed this over the years and different products have different setups. So old stock or secondhand turnouts might not have the gaps and I think even the current Small Y (or the Large Y) might not have the gaps - can't quite remember. Equivalent products in the different Codes might be different as well!

 

But as you say, it's not the end of the world if you find a turnout without them - it can be worked around with a slitting disc.

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Harlequin

[Jeff Smith]

Phil, thanks for the correction, I wonder if the O-16.5 points will be similarly updated.  I've just modified 4 such points.

[AndrueC]

What scale? For N gauge the gap between stock rail and switch blade is far too large  - with Streamline at least - to make a short likely. Frankly I doubt you could even adjust the B2B on rolling stock to be narrow enough to create such a risk. Also worth noting that N gauge Streamline turnouts don't have a pigtail you can pull out from underneath the frog. So for N gauge Streamline the only thing you have to do is use isolating joiners on the frog V. If you're using a motor it would also be advisable to provide polarity switching power to the frog (your motor controller should provide an output for frog power).

[Harlequin]

25 minutes ago, AndrueC said:

What scale? For N gauge the gap between stock rail and switch blade is far too large  - with Streamline at least - to make a short likely. Frankly I doubt you could even adjust the B2B on rolling stock to be narrow enough to create such a risk. Also worth noting that N gauge Streamline turnouts don't have a pigtail you can pull out from underneath the frog. So for N gauge Streamline the only thing you have to do is use isolating joiners on the frog V. If you're using a motor it would also be advisable to provide polarity switching power to the frog (your motor controller should provide an output for frog power).

The OP says "Code 75" so obviously OO.

 

You don't have to make any modifications to these OO electrofrog turnouts, either, but there are good reasons for applying the mods (which are about more than preventing B2B shorts). The OP needs to work out what suits him best.

 

[Jeff Smith]

There are some people on here that are happy to rely on the point-blade/stock-rail touching for continuity/frog polarity switching, however if painting the track and ballasting this continuity could be intermittent.