Hornby Class 423 4-VEP

[S.A.C Martin]

As I understand it, the development costs, including design and toolmaking, are somewhat greater than the cost of producing the models themselves. A manufacturer sets it RRP based on these costs, factoring in the number of models it plans to produce. Usually a manufacturer does not seek to recover all its costs from the first production run, but allows for future production as well (for the VEP I am sure Hornby already has a B/G variant built into its costs/pricing).

 

This is why older models are often cheaper - the development costs have already been recovered many times over and all that needs to be covered are the costs of the current production run.

 

That's very interesting. Thanks for that, fills in a few gaps. I'm still to some extent bewildered by the sheer difference in quality between the 4VEP and 4CEP, though.

[303013]

Perhaps ask what is the difference between a Grange and a King? Or a class 47 and a class 55?

 

Err, I answered my own question in the post above. I had just forgotten, having not really seen any of them in quite a while.

 

Thanks for the link anyway.

Edited September 20, 2011 by 303013

[spamcan61]

 

Not particularly scientific, but shows up the friction that the Hornby motor has to overcome with clipped-in axles, rather than pinpoint or roller bearing mounts., hence the need for traction tyres.

 

Heavens above, I hadn't twigged it uses clipped in axles throughout, no wonder it's difficult to push. I was thinking/frothing that at least Hornby now had the basis for a better Mk1 loco hauled coach, but not with clipped in axles thanks. :-(

[Pennine MC]

I think the major model railway manufacturers need a big pat on the back from us, not a kick up the backside.

 

Steve Jones had a phrase for that sort of thinking

 

Top notch handbuilt brass model companies get it wrong sometimes... even top notch British modellers... Non of us are perfect.

 

SAC and myself have already dealt with the point that nobody expects perfection, but after 20-odd pages this thread is obviously approaching the circular stage on that particular issue.

 

... "our" quest for finer and more accurate detail can be a little OTT at times. What's happened to the kit bashers/super detailers/scrapbox heroes of old who would not have found the 4 VEP a problem but a wonderful platform for upgrading?

 

I think they're still around Simon, there are a lot of modellers who see modern RTR as something between a 90% basis and blank canvas to produce the model they want. Something that - very important point - will save them time that can be put to use somewhere else, such as making the things that are less likely to come out of boxes.

 

If I were modelling WCML, I'd probably buy Heljan 86s. If I were modelling SR EMUs, I'd probably buy VEPs. In each case, that would be because they're the best available RTR and despite their flaws, they would save time over the alternatives. But that's the point - they are *flawed*, not just slightly short of perfect. They would cost a lot of time in workarounds, and would still have certain shortcomings that would have to be lived with. For a more casual purchase though, the likelihood of a model joining the 'must sort that out someday' pile would be enough to make me keep my hand in my pocket.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Pennine MC

[Uk_Steve]

Mine just come and taken a few photos to share with others for now

 

on 1st looks i am pretty pleased to be fair however i will be testing on the track in due course and

report back later on today this is the bit i am dreading "fingers crossed for Steve"

 

 

speak soon

[Uk_Steve]

oh wow in a bad way nr a hour later

 

now i am very sad to report the following it does not get round the track does not matter how i refigure the train

even tried weight on coaches but the front coach allways die rails on certain points on the layout

 

its not 1 but multi locations it does this

 

where i have been a loyal customer to my train dealer they have a track record with all my trains and i never had a problem with any of mine i have 5 trains with sounds from them

"some have been exclusive" where i have to buy else where and then send to them to do the sound for me and sadly this Hornby is not going round my layout

 

also i now can see its only minor i would of lived with it but the front light in orange is silly it needs to be a white led instead,

the over all quailty we both agreed with the dealer is not as detailed as Bachmann for example and fair play to my dealer hence why i always stick with them, i like to be loyal,he said send it back and we get you a full refund,they send it back to Hornby and maybe they sort the issues out in due course then i may rethink of getting

1 in the future when everything is sorted out maybe?!!?!?!?!

 

Bachmann please please do a NSE CEP and JAFFA because at least i know yours go round with ease and look better in detail

however weathering would of helped the Hornby loads to the eye i like to be fair and honest

 

so if you want my advice guys and girls "WAIT B4 YOU BUY!" because if you want a fully working train its not the ticket yet sadly

 

at least i got my Bachmann NSE 2EPB with sound now so i can weather that coach now because i sent the front coach to get sound fitted,

 

I did my check to make sure it goes round my track and it runs like a beauty like the rest of them

 

 

kind regards from Steve

Edited September 21, 2011 by Uk_Steve

[Red Fox]

This was the only thing from the Hornby 2010/11 range that I was really looking forward to getting but having seen model and read the performance horror stories I've decided to cancel my pre-order of the NSE unit. For me I think there is just too many niggles to justify keeping it.

 

The Southern Electric Group have a two page review of the model if anyone is interested which includes a good head on comparison shot http://www.southernelectric.org.uk/modelling/modnews.html

[Southernman46]

That settles it - the cash for this is going on another blue 2-EPB and a extra Kenow DEMU to create a "2-HAP" and provide a spare DT for my "towing to works by Class 73 with a converted BY van train"............

 

At least that means Bachmann will then announce a proper 2-HAP about 5 seconds afterwards.........

[steveb860]

converted BY van train"............

 

 

Like this ?

 

[S.A.C Martin]

This was the only thing from the Hornby 2010/11 range that I was really looking forward to getting but having seen model and read the performance horror stories I've decided to cancel my pre-order of the NSE unit. For me I think there is just too many niggles to justify keeping it.

 

The Southern Electric Group have a two page review of the model if anyone is interested which includes a good head on comparison shot http://www.southerne...ng/modnews.html

 

That review you linked to pretty much hits the nail on the head in every area. The side by side comparison of the fronts is a right eye opener (another one!) and once seen, can't be unseen. It doesn't look right on the Hornby model.

[Southernman46]

 

Like this ?

 

 

That's the one - nice looking model !!

[steveb860]

Thanks Southernman. If your going to do the same, check out railtech-models.com for their decals. I hadn't heard of them until my good friend Mr Angell showed me their website last week, the day after I individually applied the numbers and lettering. They have some useful sets to make life a bit easier

 

Steve

[kintbury jon]

Not VEP model but VEP related, I won a VEP number plate (from inside the cab) off ebay the other day. The chap selling appears to have quite a few for sale and has relisted the auction if anyones into VEP memorabilia!

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SOUTHERN-RAILWAY-E-M-U-423-CLASS-CAB-NUMBERPLATES-/270822002730?pt=UK_Collectables_Railwayana_RL&hash=item3f0e3fd02a

[darren01]

HI

Well it looks like this VEP is bit of a dogs dinner with all it's little failings , one thing that i did notice is the motor ,"This model is driven by Hornby's familiar five pole pancake motor with traction tyres on the wheels of the outer axle" is this not the old Lima motor set up? .

Edited September 22, 2011 by darren01

[Gwiwer]

Same "set-up" but as well covered above it seems to be a different sized unit with slightly different wheels. And this is rapidly showing itself to be a Railroad-style model at a "red box" price. If this is the future for Hornby - and acknowledging that everyone's costs are ever-increasing - then I have concerns for their future in the business at this level.

[S.A.C Martin]

The £120 question...bar the front and rear bogies of the whole unit, are the bogies now correctly aligned so that the dampers are correctly orientated, and should they be orientated the same way on the opposite side (because if they should be, then turning the bogies 180 degrees is fruitless)?

I am not looking forward to cutting off the guard irons. I may leave them as is for the moment.

[Brian Kirby]

Great photos there S.A.C., although the third one is not appearing for me?

 

Some of your middle coach ( ignoring the driver's end bogies ) torsion bars are still pointing the wrong way, they should all point from the middle of each bogie towards the middle of each coach, except on the motor bogies. The bogies should have a left and a right side, don't tell me the Hornby factory have assembled the bogies with two sides the same?

 

Apart from a few grumbles, i think the bogies are nicely moulded and certainly look the part. The motor bogie sideframes are commendably close to the solebar, although these might be too close for train set curves. Are these motor bogies catching the underframe and causing derailments?

 

I still haven't bought one, although my heart is tempted, my head keeps hearing all the niggles. I'm still worried about the bodyside height and wondering if it will need replacement B5s, using Replica spares?

 

Cheers, Brian.

[Trevellan]

Having been procrastinating on this ever since the first ones appeared I have finally decided to cancel my orders. Yes, the model captures the essence of the prototype but there is simply too much remedial work to do on a model of that price. Sorry Hornby, I'd love to support you on this one but you're asking too much of me.

[pauln]

 

Update. Although mine has the DCC fitted slip it didn't have a decoder fitted. Just as well I had a nice Sapphire ready to slot in. It is now running in. Does anyone's elses (NSE) VEP sound a bit graunchy at low speed ? Maybe it is just running in needed but under speed step 7 the motor bogie sounds awfully like its about to seize up but fine at higher speeds. Slips a bit on 3rd radius curves too.

 

Both of mine (NSE and plain blue) are now making a loud grinding noise from the motor bogie at low speed. Now being packaged to go back for a replacement. Very disappointing.

[gc4946]

Have you or anyone else tried running it on DC with the blanking plug fitted? If the motor's quieter at low speeds then the chip if it's a R8249 type may be the culprit. I've found Bachmann's 36-553 chips work better with Hornby's power bogies of this type, especially if you disable the BEMF function (CV 49) by setting it to zero.

[kipford]

Ran my NSE version (non chipped) on our club Thomas layout last night. first impressions

 

1. Its not particularly noisy on DC.

2. They dont like small radius Peco points (The front driving trailer tends to derail)

3. Only just enough swing on the bogies to get round 2nd radius and the drag (slowing down) is very noticeable.

 

This is no problem to me as mine is going EM on a 42" min ruling radius.

 

PS We have worked out the EM conversion its not a particularly difficult one, with loads of room for EM/P4 whee lsets unlike the Bachman 4-CEP which needs the bogies to be stretched (watch out for a soon to be available very simple bogies stretch kit from Great Shefford of this parish).

 

Dave

[Ceptic]

That review you linked to pretty much hits the nail on the head in every area. The side by side comparison of the fronts is a right eye opener (another one!) and once seen, can't be unseen. It doesn't look right on the Hornby model.

 

May l also add my thanks, Red Fox, for your link to the Southern Electric Group's review, and for your lastest set of photos, S.A.C Martin, showing the bogie anomalies.

Going back to the initial, first impression of 'the VEP's face', expressed by myself, and other members, both here, and on the Hornby site.

The SEG's review concludes with comparitive, front end, pictures of a prototype 4-VEP, against that of Hornby's version.

What aren't included, are comparitive measurements.

 

Back in the 80's, l took some measurements of the 2nd generation BR(S) EMUs.. (To assist an 'O' Guage kit producer).

l'm reluctant to say this, but, Hornby's front end measurements / laser scans, or whatever they used ?, are nowhere near, and have resulted in what we see here.

 

Regards.

Edited September 23, 2011 by Ceptic

[The Evil Bus Driver]

I'll probably get one but I'd like to see a CIG from Bachmann.

[Lyddrail]

S.A.C Martin,

 

I have turned the trailer bogies the correct way round which is ok except the leading bogies.

 

Yes you have to move the guard irons plus the steps. One of the shoebeams is made wrong anyway on one side but some surgery should work, just pulled it off and as suspected the bottom step is the same moulding. Should be do able.

 

Cheers.

[pauln]

Have you or anyone else tried running it on DC with the blanking plug fitted? If the motor's quieter at low speeds then the chip if it's a R8249 type may be the culprit. I've found Bachmann's 36-553 chips work better with Hornby's power bogies of this type, especially if you disable the BEMF function (CV 49) by setting it to zero.

 

I did try on DC and it was better initially but then still the same problem. Chip is a Hornby Sapphire. In any case I lost patience with it - for a spend of £120 each a Hornby loco should work with a Hornby chip !

 

Also when I spoke to the dealer he described the noise back to me so I can't be the only one that has reported an issue.

Edited September 23, 2011 by pauln