Hornby Class 423 4-VEP

[brushman47544]

7739, 7741 and 7742. When the 8Vab was disbanded I believe they ran as such for a short time though not in their originally-intended formations. Of those units only 7 from 12 cars were used in the 8Vab (the other coach being a loose-coupled buffet car) and five remained spare. Some were later used as accident victim replacements IIRC. They were dumped at the back of Eastleigh Works and were visible from the Botley line.

 

3421 upwards were all reformed at refurbishment from the original due to the longer time taken to refurbish the motor coach compered with the other three. 3401-20 (the original 7701-20 from the Bournemouth electrification) were kept together as they have always differed slightly including having lifting lugs.

And as far as I recall 7701-7720/3001-3020/3401-3420 were only ever allocated to the SWD. On refurbishment, however, some of these units did swop MBS with a later series unit. It was only the DTCs that needed to be kept separate - in addition to the lifting lugs, they were also built with asbestos and so were kept together in the early number block for easy identification in case of an accident.

 

3408 was slightly different, in that it was reformed on refurbishment including a later series DTC at least, the original being written off the Clapham Junction accident.

Edited September 30, 2011 by brushman47544

[Guest oldlugger]

With all this activity to correct and upgrade the Hornby 4 VEP what about turning your attention to some authentic looking track and third rail to go with it? Correctly modelled third rail is an art in itself and often sadly neglected.

 

Cheers

Simon

 

PS - I'll be selling some Scalefour Society/C and L/Exactoscale third rail components (including scale conductor rail) on the RMweb market soon. Some of this is only available to Scalefour Society members. This was all left over from my St. Mary Hoo layout.

Edited September 30, 2011 by oldlugger

[Uk_Steve]

Well. I've done it! I've ordered a blue one. I'll now wait until it arrives and see what it's like "in the plastic" so to speak. And then start minor mods/weathering etc. I'll see if I can scratchbuild a new door for the end as I haven't the balls to cut into a brand new model just yet.

i was at Bluewater Shopping Center yesterday i had a look around in Modelzone they had the blue 4 vep there,

it was nice to see it in the flesh because i seen the NSE version but not the blue train since yesterday,

 

hope it all works out for you

 

i am still enjoying reading this post watching and reading peoples journey on mods on the 4VEP

 

All the best from Steve

[S.A.C Martin]

With all this activity to correct and upgrade the Hornby 4 VEP what about turning your attention to some authentic looking track and third rail to go with it? Correctly modelled third rail is an art in itself and often sadly neglected.

 

Hi Simon - didn't know that. Am going to be building a 3rd rail layout (!) over the course of the next year. What pitfalls should I look out for?

[Welly]

^^^

I think a pitfall with OO track and 3rd rail will be the alignment of the third rail relative to the pickup shoe on the bogie.

[Pugsley]

 

Hi Simon - didn't know that. Am going to be building a 3rd rail layout (!) over the course of the next year. What pitfalls should I look out for?

This site will tell you everything you need to know about the 3rd (and 4th) rail systems:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/russelliott/3rd-4th.html

 

I'd recommend using the S4/Exactoscale parts, they're fiddly but look so much better than the Peco ones.

[Gwiwer]

Conductor rail cross-section differ to running rail, make sure you use the correct "pots" for your era (recent ones are rather different to the old SR standard version) and remember to fit boards beside the juice rail at any location where persons might cross or regularly walk along the line. Conductor rails change sides occasionally but are most frequently in the "six foot" and are never adjacent to platform faces unless there is absolutely no alternative. Leave gaps to represent section breaks and remember the heavy-duty cable and fittings joining those ends. Conductor rails are often filled with black gunge in the web and have a shiny black appearance (which can be described as an oily sheen) on top. The do not look the same as running rails.

Edited October 1, 2011 by Gwiwer

[Gwiwer]

^^^

I think a pitfall with OO track and 3rd rail will be the alignment of the third rail relative to the pickup shoe on the bogie.

It will take skill to get the juice rail aligned correctly across a whole layout for both height and distance from the running rail but it ought to be possible to produce a simple jig to serve as a guide. Think how simple the Peco track spacer is - just a bit of shaped plastic - and work from there.

 

The harder part will be getting the trains powered from the conductor rail with current picked up via the shoes which is something I intend to work on next year.

[S.A.C Martin]

The harder part will be getting the trains powered from the conductor rail with current picked up via the shoes which is something I intend to work on next year.

 

That sounds rather fun! I suppose it would also solve a lot of problems of conductivity as you don't then have the problems associated with pointwork/etc, and the powered shoes can be as on the prototype, instead of as it is on the Hornby VEP?

[Gwiwer]

It creates and replicates all the problems the SR network has always had with "gapping" and ensuring even power supply across points and crossings only scaled down to 1:76. However a stalling train doesn't recognise scale and stalls as soon as there is no power supply. I would need to fit a bus line through the units and have all shoes as live pick-ups.

[phil-b259]

..... Conductor rails change sides occasionally but are most frequently in the "four foot" and are never adjacent to platform faces unless there is absolutely no alternative.....

Erm I asume that is a typo and you mean the "six foot" as 3rd rail units would have a bit of trouble picking up the juice from between the running rails (which is what the "four foot" stands for). Now if we are talking about the London Underground.....

Edited October 1, 2011 by phil-b259

[Gwiwer]

Yes - genuine typo. Sorry. I shouldn't try to think so early in the morning here

[Guest oldlugger]

 

Hi Simon - didn't know that. Am going to be building a 3rd rail layout (!) over the course of the next year. What pitfalls should I look out for?

 

Hello Simon!

 

No pitfalls as such, but as Welly points out the fixed dummy pick ups on some rtr models can easily foul the third rail if the conductor rail is not consistently level throughout your track layout. I've read quite a few posts where this has happened, causing the models to lift off the track and derail. The more glaring issue to my eyes in OO gauge is the relative alignment between the collector shoe beam and the third rail with the beam sitting too far away from the rail. I think this may apply to Peco type track more than something like SMP or C and L with their longer sleepers. Obviously this is just personal preference and may not bother others. I use working scale pick ups on my P4 layout (with live third rail) on a converted Bachmann 2 EPB which dictates the use of correctly aligned third rail relative to the shoe beam; however, with a working system the third rail can be out of level alignment, as is so often found in reality:

 

http://www.disused-s...lt/index1.shtml

 

and still work well with the sprung pick ups. P4 lends itself to third rail installation very nicely. As to other features of third rail that might be worth considering, here are the main ones that I've come across:

 

1. Power feeds - there are several different types and are "usually" positioned at specific points on the third rail; often near the end ramp

2. Wired (ensuring power continuity) fishplates connecting sections of third rail

3. Side exit ramps on some points and crossings

4. Side protection boards where staff come into contact with the 750v supply (with two different types of bracket fixing depending on the era, and some have chamfered tops). C and L produce a jig to align the boards with the track (I've got one for sale)

5. Concrete cable ducting for rail feeds and sub stations

6. Different types of conductor rail end ramps

7. The physical layout of third rail in certain locations especially over complex point work

8. Third rail varies in colour depending how much it is used; as Gwiwer points out, most are a black oily colour on heavily used lines (this is generated by strategically placed pick up activated greasers); some are just a brake dust brown; branchlines and sidings can look quite rusty and almost out of use!

 

Most will have seen the excellent article by CLAG (mentioned by Pugsley above) on third and fourth rail but it's worth having a look if you haven't seen it.

 

The Scalefour Society conductor rail has a scale profile in cross section and is heavier in appearance to the Peco rail; I don't think it will fit the Peco insulators. I used a hybrid insulator made up of Peco and Scalefour Society parts, plus some scratch built insulators.

 

All the best

Simon

Edited October 1, 2011 by oldlugger

[Ceptic]

The trackside, raised wooden trunking was another feature of SR/BR(S) 3rd. rail electrification, up to, about, 10 years ago, until being gradually replaced by the concrete troughing. (There was a stretch of this still in place, between Farlington and Bedhampton, as recently as 6 years ago)

Although not seen, very often, in model form, an excellent example of this, is seen modelled here, on Peter Goss's superb 4mm. /1ft. 'Rowlands Castle'.

 

http://www.freewebs.com/rowlandscastlemodelrailway/apps/photos/photo?photoid=25190438

 

Maybe The Scalefour Society, Peco, Ratio or Wills, might be tempted to add this to their list to do's ?, now that interest in 3rd. rail modelling is gaining ground.

 

Regards.

[S.A.C Martin]

Just to say thank you chaps for the plethora of information here - it's much appreciated! Just finished my first day of work, am going to read through everything again while relaxing with a beer and making notes. Hoping to finish off the 4VEP in the next few weeks and start some work on the scenery and my first 4EPB...gulp!

[John M Upton]

Well it would appear that the traction tyres being present or being replaced actually make very little difference to the overall performance. Unless your track is absolutely dead level flat, the VEP will not negotiate any corner less than fourth radius!!!

 

The motor simply does not have the oomph to push two, pull itself and haul one coach or vice versa. Either it is going to need a lot more weight or else I am going to have to consider remotoring it completely.

 

A pity as with a little work the cosmetics can be largely sorted out to a satisfactory level but if the innards are quite simply not up to the job of moving it then what is the point!!!

[gc4946]

This latest finding raises serious issues as I was on the point of buying a NSE version this weekend and on my layout it'll run round minimum third radius curves.

As they've been available for a while now, are RMWebbers running these around 2nd/3rd radius curves and how have they've fared?

Edited October 5, 2011 by gc4946

[S.A.C Martin]

This latest finding raises serious issues as I was on the point of buying a NSE version this weekend and on my layout it'll run round minimum third radius curves.

 

Similar to me then, until I get my end to end layout set up, it'll be running round 2nd radius curves (which while tight, shouldn't be too bad for a bogie train, surely? Read on...)

 

As they've been available for a while now, are RMWebbers running these around 2nd/3rd radius curves and how have they've fared?

 

Mine has got worse and worse with use. Here's a picture of my disintegrating traction tyres:

 

 

 

I normally run models in for a few hours each way to run in, but the 4VEP gets worse and worse with every lap of the circuit. It stutters, slows down randomly, and the traction tyres are finding any excuse to climb the rails and derail the power bogie.

 

To make matters worse, the tyre degradation is affecting the cleanliness of my rails to the extent that I am now cleaning after every run - something I do maybe once a month normally with the rest of my stock running on it.

 

I have had a HST with a similar set up - traction tyres on one axle - run round the circuit happily, along with a Eurostar, and a Networker, and none of these with similar mechanisms have caused the amount of frustration that the 4VEP has.

 

Overall I'm not pleased with the 4VEP, at all, and am drawing up a plan of action for its future once and for all. What I am pleased with, is that I didn't give up straight away and it's now looking better than it did previously.

 

 

Still to be renumbered, however I have noticed that the variant I am modelling needed to have the warning flashes removed (they are now gone), and in fairness could renumber it to a set which had the numbers under the handrails (convenient).

 

Note the replacement wire handrails on the trailing coach - the original plastic ones I damaged accidentally while weathering. They will be painted black in due course.

Edited October 5, 2011 by S.A.C Martin

[gc4946]

S.A.C. Martin,

 

Thanks very much for your info, the state of the traction tyres shocked me as I've run other Hornby new style motor bogied locos (37s, 47s, 73s and DMUs) with traction tyres for similar lengths of time on a 2nd/3rd radius layout and I've never had any problems with those.

 

I'll hold back from buying a VEP until their next production batches and hope they've resolved the motor and other assembly issues.

[Uk_Steve]

once again thanks S.A.C Martin with your updates

 

Saturday in Folkestone i talked to a Hornby rep about the 4vep

 

he said there has been a handfull of problems with the 4vep

 

fair play to the man he said sorry for the situation and quality control will see the issues in due course

 

so maybe just maybe gc4946 you may be right on the 2nd run, fingers crossed with us which want a no fuss running 4 vep

 

however a board member on here has got his 4 vep running which i witnessed in the flesh on Saturday and did look good i must say but did have to do some work on his,

 

all the best from Steve

Edited December 18, 2011 by Uk_Steve

[SRman]

I keep looking at the models on sale and thinking, "Should I or shouldn't I?" but I think you are right; we should await the second batch and see if things improve in the light of feedback Hornby receive.

[Bill]

I keep looking at the models on sale and thinking, "Should I or shouldn't I?" but I think you are right; we should await the second batch and see if things improve in the light of feedback Hornby receive.

 

I agree, but more than just a second run I would hope.

First my thanks to all the VEP pioneers who are chronicling their experience and progress with it on this forum,

Now, I could really, really use one - and was waiting for the roll-out with keen anticipation - but as things stand, simply because I cannot afford and don't have the required expertise to do all the remedial work required, I won't be getting one for now. A great pity but there it is....

For me, what is important is that a model runs properly, steam engines and Class 37's can look great on display, but an EMU IMHO needs to be seen in action...

From all that I have heard, and read, and apart from the inaccuracies in the detailing of the body (which don't concern me that much), it seems to need a thorough rethink of the bogie axles and the method of powering it...

The evidence suggests that the leading and trailing coaches need to run freely if it is not to constantly derail, and traction tyres at the best of times are, for me, a big no-no... ( e.g. I would really like to get a class 73 but won't)

Maybe the best thing for one and all would be to rethink it from the ground up and produce a second run of completely re-tooled and re-engineered VEPs...

I like Hornby as a company and value their products...

I wish they would produce a quality VEP that fits the bill, even if it costs more,..

Edited October 6, 2011 by Bill

[John M Upton]

Throughly agree. I really wish Hornby had held off another six months or a year even to take the time to get it right, maybe release a few of these into the hands of experienced modellers to test drive them and identify all these problems and then rectify before mass production. You get the sense (whether true or not) that Hornby were under pressure to rush this into production as it was already quite late.

 

I was going to buy a second one as soon as retailers started discounting them much as Hattons et-al have done with the bargain (and superior) Bachmann CEP's recently but in light of experience, the VEP is being restricted to the carriage shed for the time being, blacked by the train crew depot's Trade Union rep until I can find the enthusiasm to return to it and make still further corrections to make it run properly.

 

I think the fact that no one has yet announced any retailers limited editions yet speaks volumes and probably shows that any potentially interested parties have seen the first ones, heard the lets be honest large number of horror stories that seem to have just got worse as time has gone on, gone 'eeek!' and backed away for now waiting for a better upgraded version to come along.

[S.A.C Martin]

I've been examining the traction tyres for the past week, and the blistering which is occurring on the 4VEP isn't occurring on any of my other traction tyred models - including several tender drive Pacifics and the aforementioned Eurostar and HST.

 

I had a thought it might be the use of the track cleaning fluid I use, but that doesn't seem to be the case, and I also checked against the rails, in case there was one misaligned somewhere which was causing damage - there isn't one.

 

I can only conclude that I have a duff set of traction tyres. Another cross against buying a second one. I am sincerely disheartened with the continous voyage of discovery with this model.

 

My battle plan is to replace the motor coach altogether, salvaging as much of it as possible to marry to the replica railways chassis (and damn the windows, I bought this thing to run), whilst modifying and rewiring as much as possible to keep the lighting and plugs.

 

I'll order a replica railways chassis to see if it's possible - if not the chassis goes under a 4EPB instead and I am back to square one with the 4VEP.

 

Total cost so far - £120 for the unit, £15 for the roof vents, pipes and air horns, and a possible £70 on top of that for a replica railways chassis to remotor. Not an entirely happy bunny thus far!

[John M Upton]

I decided to give it one last chance!!!

 

I put the original wheels back in (reluctantly) as I felt the Heljan ones whilst working were not really quite working as well as they should. I have cut away some of the inner end bogie framing where it was clearly fouling the inner couplings and then once reassembled for the umpteenth time sent on its last chance run.

 

I seem to have solved the derailing problem with the trailer cars now but the motor bogies still steadfastly refuses to turn left, it merely launches itself on straight ahead!!

 

Running from the station to the carriage sidings, from start off it was clear that despite the track being dead straight level and flat, the motor bogie was wheelslipping badly when it tried to get going with just two coaches ahead of it, I know it is now officially leaf fall season but this is riddiculous!! Maybe I should get an MPV...

 

Anyway, the VEP is now in store in the carriage shed whilst I decide on where to go from here!