Southern region ferry van trains: what sort of brake vans did they have (if any)?

[Nearholmer]

On 07/07/2022 at 14:57, Mike Storey said:

What IBO? Never heard of it! It may have existed when the Golden Arrow was running, but that had ceased by the time I was there (75-77),

Wasn't it part of the set-up between Platforms 1/2 and Hudson’s Place? I have vague recollections of a small customs and baggage hall, and a few associated offices there. Last time I passed it, about a decade ago, it had become a Costa coffee barista recruitment and training centre.

Edited July 10, 2022 by Nearholmer

[teeinox]

7 hours ago, SED Freightman said:

I have a company brochure issued by Transportes Ferroviarios Especiales SA (TRANSFESA) which dates from approx 1978/9, this depicts two types of  2-axle refrigerated wagon available for international traffic.  Firstly, an older type that appears much like the second wagon in Lyddrail's photo, this is Italian registered with Interfrigo livery and is stated to be equipped with the Marelli refrigeration system producing a minimum temperature of 3C. Secondly a more modern looking wagon in Transfesa livery, stated to be equipped with a system of refrigeration by liquid nitrogen producing a minimum temperature of -25C.

Do we know what were the refrigeration techniques used in Interfrigo and similar vans?

 

There appear to be quite a number of refrigeration methods.  Traditionally it was ice or dry ice.  Then there is cooling achieved by the evaporation of liquid gas such as nitrogen.  And there are what are termed machine-cooled vans.  What that means in practice, I do not know.  Marelli is an Italian company with wide interests in producing electrical equipment for refrigeration such as compressors and air conditioning equipment, but how they equipped this particular wagon, I do not know. There are also “Isothermic” wagons which have insulated wagon walls, but no refrigeration equipment at all installed: were any of the Interfrigo wagons like that?

 

I did find a Wikipedia article on the subject.  What it has to say may or may not be accurate, but here is a quote:

 

“Compared with machine-cooled vans, ice-cooled wagons have the disadvantage of uneven temperature control, because the cooling effect is only achieved by air circulation. On the other hand, machine-cooled wagons are expensive to maintain and operate, but can be set to the desired temperature and maintained at that temperature throughout the entire journey.  They are also better suited to transporting goods at deep-freeze temperatures of around −30 °C (−22 °F), whereas evaporators and ice-cooling are more suited to maintaining temperatures of around 0 °C (32 °F).   …………Most refrigerated vans in Europe today are operated by Interfrigo. These wagons are easy to tell apart externally: white vans are normal refrigerated wagons, blue ones with white stripes along the side are machine-cooled refrigerator vans.”

 

Did we see any of the blue coloured ones in the U.K.?

 

[jonhall]

Interfrigo was a post was construct formed by most of the European railway administrations to operate a pool of insulated/refrigerated wagons, some were built for Interfrigo, and some transferred, and not all were to UK dimensions. 

 

There were a number of different UIC codes for Insulated or refrigerated wagons, I don't recal the differences off the top of my head. Early vans were cooled with ice, later they had machine refrigeration. Wet ice has the problems of water and once the ice has gone, so does the cooling, Dry ice has the same problem of wet ice, but also can cause the atmosphere inside the van to become unbreathable causing asphyxiation and the mechanical refrigeration needs either fuel (which I don't this was used in the UK) or axle driver, which doesn't work very well if the wagons stops on the way.

 

Jon

[Nearholmer]

This is too early in time, and it relates to LNER services via Harwich, but it illustrates well the progress made by FS in the 1930s.

 

https://www.railwaywondersoftheworld.com/chilled-freight.html

[Mike Storey]

15 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

This is too early in time, and it relates to LNER services via Harwich, but it illustrates well the progress made by FS in the 1930s.

 

https://www.railwaywondersoftheworld.com/chilled-freight.html

 

Mussolini didn't just make the trains run on time then.......!!

 

Interesting how they developed the refrigerated container system (albeit tiny containers), but that this seems to have been abandoned post-war?

[Oldddudders]

On 07/07/2022 at 14:57, Mike Storey said:

 

What IBO? Never heard of it! It may have existed when the Golden Arrow was running, but that had ceased by the time I was there (75-77), with just the Night Ferry operation still going, so maybe that just opened in the early morning, if it still existed as such. But I think I recall seeing the baggage vans being unloaded and the contents deposited on tables along Platform 2, for people (or their chauffeurs) to collect. The only other baggage anyone would have been interested in, other than for the Night Ferry, was PLA (Passengers' Luggage in Advance) which I think, by then, was little used. Perhaps it was still open for that, but I never noticed it, and no-one, in three years, ever mentioned it!

 

Registered baggage was a “thing” when I was at Vic in the late ‘60s. I think it was one of the primary drivers behind construction of the MLVs, TLVs etc. I can’t recall how and why baggage was registered, but the existence of both Inwards and Outwards Baggage Offices at Vic indicates it was a necessary service. 

[Mike Storey]

7 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Registered baggage was a “thing” when I was at Vic in the late ‘60s. I think it was one of the primary drivers behind construction of the MLVs, TLVs etc. I can’t recall how and why baggage was registered, but the existence of both Inwards and Outwards Baggage Offices at Vic indicates it was a necessary service. 

 

Totally agree, and that is why two, not one, MLV's were added to boat trains in the late '60's and early '70's. However, by my time, '75-77, we were down to one or none, because so little use was being made of it.

 

It is true there was a kind of baggage office between Platform 2 and Hudson Place, but it seemed to be almost permanently shut, and was also used for many other things (like storing the cleaners' trollies) by my time. That is why I cannot remember an "Inwards Baggage Office" by then, but I was aware of Registered Baggage. Again, in three years, nobody ever asked me about it, although I am aware it was sometimes used for party bookings, school trips and suchlike. But the boat train ferry loadings figures from Snargate Radio would have been next to no use at all in determining unaccompanied baggage expectations at Victoria! That would have needed something else, although quite what that was eludes me. All we had AFAIR were foot passengers train, foot passengers local and bicycles train. 

 

[teeinox]

21 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

This is too early in time, and it relates to LNER services via Harwich, but it illustrates well the progress made by FS in the 1930s.

 

https://www.railwaywondersoftheworld.com/chilled-freight.html

I found a photograph of Hove sidings in 1966 which featured some (slightly) updated versions of the wagons shown in this article.  So basically the same model was still going strong over 30 years later.  Even more delightfully, it may have been hauled there by 20002, one of the precursors to the Class 71s!

 

The Sealink transit times publication SED Freightman provided tells us that journeys from Dover or Zeebrugge to, say Naples, could take 6 days.  If that were also true for the journey back to the U.K., these wagons must have been very well insulated for the ice to last that long.  So either they were re-iced en-route, or there were express transits to cut down on the time taken.

 

Can anyone shed any light on how the Interfrigo transits from Italy to Dunkerque and then to Dover were organised?

[jwealleans]

46 minutes ago, teeinox said:

either they were re-iced en-route,

 

I've been looking for this picture for a couple of days.   I can't recall where it came from but it's apparently taken close to Calais.

 

 

[teeinox]

On 31/05/2022 at 19:54, Wickham Green too said:

Now, what you / we need is a variety of continental vans - to 4mm scale - to make that more representative !

Indeed, what is required is a variety of continental vans in 4mm.

 

I think what has come out in this discussion is that the overwhelming traffic at Dover was agricultural, carried in Transfesa, Interfrigo and Continental administration owned wagons.  Looking at pictures of the period, the BR continental ferry van as modelled by Hornby is not to be seen.  So I’m afraid the picture of the model train I published of a train consisting entirely of Hornby VIX continental ferry vans is, well, pretty much wrong.  That doesn’t mean they didn’t appear at Dover, but it looks like they were not a common sight.  Though I did find a photo of a rake of them being hauled into the Hither Green Continental Freight Depot.  But it’s all a bit fishy.  The “HA” locomotive is in unlined green, but the wagons are pristine with immaculate paintwork and yellow painted axle boxes.  Looks like some sort of test run to me, perhaps after their construction at Ashford?

 

The situation at Dover regarding these vans contrasts with that at Harwich, where arial photos show plenty of them, probably transporting industrial goods to the continent, as in the famous (or notorious) photo of sanitaryware being packed into one at Stoke-on-Trent for transport to Iraq.  Moreover, some early photos of them (and, incidentally, the Railtech transfers) show them branded for the Harwich-Zeebrugge route only.

 

So that leaves me in a bit of spot, with the choice of period alternatives in 4mm virtually non-existent!  Hornby produced editions of their continental ferry van masquerading unconvincingly as Transfesa and Interfrigo vans.  I do have a strange, horrible, and inexplicable desire for the Interfrigo version, but I resist!  4-wheel tank wagons certainly appeared at Dover, but, again, owned by foreign organisations.  The nearest I can get to them is the Hornby Dublo Traffic Services Ltd tank wagon of which I have two.

 

It looks like modeller’s licence is going to have to apply here, and I shall just have to stick with what I have got.  So, here is the train reformed to include the Hornby Dublo tank wagons.

 

 

Perhaps the train is on its way from Hither Green sidings to Dover Town Yard.  I leave the choice of route (and therefore Hornby stick-on head-code for the “HA”) to you, dear reader.  Via Tonbridge (5A), Maidstone East (5C), or Chatham (5D)?  Which is it going to be?

[Oldddudders]

On 11/07/2022 at 15:44, Mike Storey said:

But the boat train ferry loadings figures from Snargate Radio would have been next to no use at all in determining unaccompanied baggage expectations at Victoria! That would have needed something else, although quite what that was eludes me. All we had AFAIR were foot passengers train, foot passengers local and bicycles train. 

 

Quite right - and if I took the Snargate message at Vic (AMO - where I was working as a supernumerary in early '68), RB would have been a separate number, to be passed immediately to the IBO.

 

Less than a year later, incidentally, by now working in Redhill Control, I might well be ringing the AMO in the small hours to tell them any permissible delays on the 03.20 and 03.27 paper trains. A typical message would be "10 minutes, Daily Express" which meant that BR at HQ level had agreed with the NPA (Newspaper Proprietors' Assocation) that the Express vans were a little late leaving Fleet Street, and the train could be held for their - but only their - arrival. If e.g. the Daily Mail turned up late that day they were to be turned away. 

[Mike Storey]

44 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Quite right - and if I took the Snargate message at Vic (AMO - where I was working as a supernumerary in early '68), RB would have been a separate number, to be passed immediately to the IBO.

 

Less than a year later, incidentally, by now working in Redhill Control, I might well be ringing the AMO in the small hours to tell them any permissible delays on the 03.20 and 03.27 paper trains. A typical message would be "10 minutes, Daily Express" which meant that BR at HQ level had agreed with the NPA (Newspaper Proprietors' Assocation) that the Express vans were a little late leaving Fleet Street, and the train could be held for their - but only their - arrival. If e.g. the Daily Mail turned up late that day they were to be turned away. 

 

Interesting! One for the fact that the "AMO" in those days was open 24 hours (by my days in Ops, 1981 onwards, it was most definitely not!), and the other for the fact that you are saying Snargate made two separate calls to Victoria for each train, including the Night Ferry. As they often, by my time at Vic, didn't even ring until at least one train had arrived, with the details for several (summer reliefs especially), I guess things must have changed an awful lot by then!

 

[Oldddudders]

Eddie Austin - aka Mr Victoria (and it was Jack Haynes, former Central Division Royal Train Guard, who called him that!) - was a larger-than-life character, with a BBC accent, in the AMO. Yes, it was three shifts, and I was there a couple of nights to do bundle-counting on those paper trains, after allegations of missing bundles. Two young chaps in civvies were on those trains, identified by the platform staff as plain-clothes coppers. Wrong - they were Bob Crockford and Don Love, of whom I think you wot! 

[SED Freightman]

2 hours ago, teeinox said:

 

 

 

Perhaps the train is on its way from Hither Green sidings to Dover Town Yard.  I leave the choice of route (and therefore Hornby stick-on head-code for the “HA”) to you, dear reader.  Via Tonbridge (5A), Maidstone East (5C), or Chatham (5D)?  Which is it going to be?

Looking again at the SR WTT, Section M (Freight), Mandatory Train Services, commencing 01/05/1972, I suggest your consist would possibly match 7W51 0100 (MX) Hither Green Sidings to Dover Town (arr.0530) which ran via Maidstone East with headcode 5C.  For added interest, this service could also convey traffic for Folkestone (to be marshalled separately), which was forwarded on the 0512 (MSX) or 0712 (SO) to Folkestone East.  The other three daily services from Hither Green to Dover, started from the Continental Depot and were therefore very unlikely to be conveying tank cars.

[Mike Storey]

16 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Eddie Austin - aka Mr Victoria (and it was Jack Haynes, former Central Division Royal Train Guard, who called him that!) - was a larger-than-life character, with a BBC accent, in the AMO. Yes, it was three shifts, and I was there a couple of nights to do bundle-counting on those paper trains, after allegations of missing bundles. Two young chaps in civvies were on those trains, identified by the platform staff as plain-clothes coppers. Wrong - they were Bob Crockford and Don Love, of whom I think you wot! 

 

Knew Don Love, but not Bob, and then only by reputation! Didn't he go into Internal Control?

 

 

[Oldddudders]

Don was AM Cheam, OO on Central in 1972-ish, ended up as AM at Liv St, then went and worked w Eurotunnel on the design of their locos. Few senior managers have had such a warm reputation - he really was loved. Would we could all engender that level of support among our staff!

 

Bob Crockford was AM at Crawley (!) and then went into Shipping & International Services Division, as it then was, I think. 

[teeinox]

22 hours ago, SED Freightman said:

Looking again at the SR WTT, Section M (Freight), Mandatory Train Services, commencing 01/05/1972, I suggest your consist would possibly match 7W51 0100 (MX) Hither Green Sidings to Dover Town (arr.0530) which ran via Maidstone East with headcode 5C.  For added interest, this service could also convey traffic for Folkestone (to be marshalled separately), which was forwarded on the 0512 (MSX) or 0712 (SO) to Folkestone East.  The other three daily services from Hither Green to Dover, started from the Continental Depot and were therefore very unlikely to be conveying tank cars.

Thank you for this fine suggestion.

 

So my model railway consist could have at least a (slight) nod at reality?  Fabulous!

 

But were VIX vans seen at Dover on any significant scale?

 

The choice of the Maidstone route reminds me of early trips on Eurostar:  so often we seemed to get the route via Maidstone East on travelling from the Continent to the UK.  And one time when travelling to Lille, hit the jackpot with via both the Catford Loop AND Maidstone East.  Just felt the journey would never end as we crept along!

[SED Freightman]

On 24/07/2022 at 20:33, teeinox said:

The choice of the Maidstone route reminds me of early trips on Eurostar:  so often we seemed to get the route via Maidstone East on travelling from the Continent to the UK.  And one time when travelling to Lille, hit the jackpot with via both the Catford Loop AND Maidstone East.  Just felt the journey would never end as we crept along!

OT but prior to the commencement of normal services I travelled on a Waterloo - Coquelles ET Emergency Platform test trip on Saturday 11th June 1994, routed via Herne Hill & Maidstone East, one highlight of the trip was smooth passage over Swanley Junction at line speed, quite unlike travelling in normal stock thanks to the articulated coaches.

Edited July 30, 2022 by SED Freightman
Added date and corrected destination.

[bécasse]

21 hours ago, SED Freightman said:

OT but prior to the commencement of normal services I travelled on a Waterloo - Fretun test trip route routed via Maidstone East, one highlight of the trip was smooth passage over Swanley Junction at line speed, quite unlike travelling in normal stock thanks to the articulated coaches.

I travelled (on duty) from Waterloo to Coquelles ET terminal and back on Tuesday 3 May 1994 on what was the first train to carry a significant number of (invited) passengers through the tunnel. Although I had been inside a TMST before, I had never been in one in motion and I too remember being absolutely astounded by just how well it rode on "Southern Region" track (although it was routed via BTR1 each way and thus not via Maidstone East).

[SED Freightman]

2 hours ago, bécasse said:

I travelled (on duty) from Waterloo to Coquelles ET terminal and back on Tuesday 3 May 1994 on what was the first train to carry a significant number of (invited) passengers through the tunnel. Although I had been inside a TMST before, I had never been in one in motion and I too remember being absolutely astounded by just how well it rode on "Southern Region" track (although it was routed via BTR1 each way and thus not via Maidstone East).

Having dug out my old diary, I note your trip was a few weeks in advance of mine (earlier post updated), which actually ended up in the Coquelles Emergency Platform.  Other highlights of the trip were on the return when we were held at the tunnel entrance whilst a French steam loco emerged after being engaged in testing the fire detection system, followed by a stop and test evacuation into the service tunnel at some point below the Channel.

[SteveyDee68]

A little bit off-topic, but perhaps this rare (R@RE?) model might (?) work as something coming over from the continent on a train ferry?

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/354170218847?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=zb4-0H_TSPS&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=e--l92_9TXi&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

I have absolutely no idea whether it is to 4mm scale or not!

 

Steve S

[Wickham Green too]

Absolutely no doubt the standard long wheelbase chassis is to 4mm scale - or as close to 'scale' as Triang's products were back then ............ and the SNCF-style body's been made to fit it.

[teeinox]

47 minutes ago, SteveyDee68 said:

A little bit off-topic, but perhaps this rare (R@RE?) model might (?) work as something coming over from the continent on a train ferry?

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/354170218847?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=zb4-0H_TSPS&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=e--l92_9TXi&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

I have absolutely no idea whether it is to 4mm scale or not!

 

Steve S

According to Pat Hammond's book, it is a model of an SNCF fourgon, and was made between 1963 and 1965.  As I read it, it was to OO, not HO scale.  It was commissioned by Tri-ang as part of a venture that was not proceeded with.  It featured in the transcontinental (!) set RS44, and was sold solo.  Altogether, 8000 of them were sold.  Not really a plausible train-ferry vehicle.

[Wickham Green too]

The only SNCF fourgon that would have been seen on the ferries were those involved with the 'Night Ferry' passenger workings - either plain vans or those with a guards' compartment : the latter did start life with 'birdcages' but they were round-topped rather than shaped like the Triang model.

[Mike Storey]

23 hours ago, SED Freightman said:

Having dug out my old diary, I note your trip was a few weeks in advance of mine (earlier post updated), which actually ended up in the Coquelles Emergency Platform.  Other highlights of the trip were on the return when we were held at the tunnel entrance whilst a French steam loco emerged after being engaged in testing the fire detection system, followed by a stop and test evacuation into the service tunnel at some point below the Channel.

 

I and my wife were on that trip too! (Courtesy of my brother being a driver for Eurostar). It was certainly eventful.