Front end of the LNER Y1 & Y3 Sentinel Engines

[GERDecapod]

Hello, I'd like to ask a question that I've had in the back of my mind for quite a long time, which is end is the front end of the Y1 & Y3 sentinel shunters or any typical Sentinel industrial shunter? Most photographs I see depict them water filler cap first, but I have also noticed their funnels are at the back if this is the case. 

Best regards Steven

Edited May 28, 2022 by GERDecapod

[Wickham Green too]

The end with the class and allocation painted on the bufferbeam is the front.

[t-b-g]

In BR days, they had a "smokebox" number plate on the cab end between the windows, so that was presumably regarded as the front for such things. Like more conventional tank locos, the "bunker" was at the back.

[Wickham Green too]

Ah - but those Sentinels with a more normal outline DID have a bunker at the back = the other end !

 

 

....... and the LMS locos seem to have adhered to a cab-at-rear convention.

[Steamport Southport]

The cab is the rear end. Even on the double cabbed version. Look at where the number is.

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/Y/y10.php

 

Most conventional Sentinels had the bunker in the middle left hand side with the water tank on the left. The front end comprised the cylinders and gearbox. They really didn't need a lot of coal.

 

http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/sentinel/sentinel.htm

 

 

Jason

[GERDecapod]

So for Y1 & Y3 Sentinels the cab was the front and the bunker was the back? I noticed in diagram that both the Y1 and Y3 had the their boilers facing to the end without the bunker and the two windows facing forward, would that mean that is the front? I have also noticed that in their other more conventional designs they have always pointed the boiler towards the front. So in conclusion the front end of the Y1 & Y3 sentinels is the end with without the bunker and the back end is the end with the bunker? Am I correct?

[Wickham Green too]

Er ...... the boiler is vertical and is IN the cab : it's the steamy thing sticking out of the roof of 'Ranald' above. The weight of this is counterbalanced by the cylinders and gearbox : the cylinder cover is the red 'biscuit tin' at the far end of the loco. The vast majority of Sentinel locos were laid out in a similar fashion though casings over the various components varied considerably.

[GERDecapod]

Yes I understand, and I apologize if my way of elaborating was confusing. But the boiler is pointing toward the forward position on the Y1 & Y3 Sentinels, what I mean by this is they point funnel first. The main difference that I notice with the Y1 & Y3 sentinels and any others of that same design is that they differ in where they put the cylinders and driving gear compared with other sentinel designs. On the Y1 & Y3 they put the cylinders towards the center of the engine or at the rear of the drivers position. Unlike their prewar and postwar industrial counterparts where instead they put the cylinders at the very front of the engines. Thats why I'm confused on which end of Y1 & Y3 Sentinels is the front end, because their layouts differ from other Sentinel designs. I've submitted two photos below to try and illustrate what I'm trying to say, the red arrows are for which way the boiler is pointing, and the green is for the cylinder position. So is it correct in saying that the front end of the Y1 & Y3 Sentinels is chimney/funnel first? I'd like to apologize again if my way of explaining is confusing.

Best Regards Steven 

 

[Steamport Southport]

No. Cab is the rear on all steam locomotives apart from "cab forwards".

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cab_forward

 

Where the coal and water is stored is irrelevant as many small tank engines had the bunkers in the front of the cab. Look at a Caley Pug.

 

Take for example the multitude of diesel shunters and the cab is officially at the back. They can work equally well going either way so it's not an issue.

 

 

Jason

[GERDecapod]

Yes, I understand but the pre war Sentinel pictured on the bottom has what you may call the conventional layout of steam locomotive. But the Y3 Sentinel pictured above has a layout more akin to a cab forward as you can see the boiler is pointing funnel forwards towards the front the cab end. You can also notice in the diagram above that the Sentinels controls and the like are all pointing towards the funnel end of the engine the cab end, I've also observed that their class and allocation is always painted on the cab end many thanks to t-b-g for pointing that out. Are there any official company records that list with side of the engine is the front end? 

[t-b-g]

I wonder if, somewhere in the cab, there is a selector for "forward" or "reverse" gears. That would put it to rest. Has anybody access to the cab of a preserved one to check?

[Wickham Green too]

I guess if you asked the driver of a Y1 or Y3 which end was the front, he'd cogitate for half a millisecond and reply " Dunno mate - never thought about it ...... does it matter ?".

 

The other thing to consider is the orientation on official weight diagrams etc. : your lower drawing looks very much like the diagram of 7184 shown in Rowledge's "Engines of the LMS" ( OPC 1975 ) facing to the left like every other loco in the book except - arguably - 7180-3 and 7192 which, like your first drawing, have the chimney to the right.

[cctransuk]

31 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

..... does it matter ?

 

No!!!

 

CJI.

[t-b-g]

Very little of what we do in this hobby actually matters. I can see that it is a question worth asking when it comes to either wiring a motor up or fitting a DCC chip. It is just a case of which way it should go when you turn the power up.

[GERDecapod]

I was able to find an pdf document about Sentinel and their patent engines, it seems to confirm that the front end of the sentinels is the cab end. I've submitted a few of the pictures I took. Thank you for the help everyone. 

Best regards Steven

 

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, GERDecapod said:

Now, the diagram several posts up shows the reversing quadrant mounted across the vehicle - so this would imply that the  forward end of the loco is to the left and the reverse end is to the right !!?!

[GERDecapod]

Never noticed that, thank you for pointing that's out. Here's another picture of the controls, I believe it's of their steam railcar/railmotor type. But I think it is the same in terms of layout compared to their industrial shunters. I also forgot to add that is at the rear of the railcar/railmotor.

Edited May 30, 2022 by GERDecapod