Lathes & M/C tools

[bertiedog]

On milling in general, the cutters are a bit of a mystery to a newcomer, it needs surprisingly few of them to get started. Don't forget a small cutter can cut big channels in a miller, and you could start with one of say 5mm and do lots of work with just that single cutter.

 

 

If you had say 2mm, 4mm and 6mm this would cover most work. As others said two point HSS slot drills are a good option, they drill as well as side cut, but there is the option of a four blade cutter with cross point that will do the same. These reduce vibration and give a finer surface finish.

 

A true mill cutter will not drill a hole, it can trim a channel in bites, and move sideways and with smaller mills the four blades make the operation smoother than a two blade slot drill.

 

Most cutters in the small sizes can be fitted into a plain arbour blank holder, no chuck or special retainer is needed, a bolt bears on the shank, with an added ground flat spot for security.

 

These fit the Morse tapers in all sizes, and can take the milling machine drawbar to hold them firmly. They can easily have a sleeve fitted, made in the lathe to take odd diameter mills. This system suits smaller mills where Autolock chucks may not fit, or waste a lot of space over the milling table, reducing what can be machined.

 

Any alternative I use, that suits small precision work is to use 3mm shank carbide"burr" mills, they cut anything except diamond, and work without vibration unlike slot drills.

 

A 3mm can cut 12mm deep and any width, so covers a lot of model work like frames etc. A holder can be made in the lathe to fit a morse blank arbour. Burr mills will not drill properly, they do not cut at centre axis, which slot and cross point mills do. They are fragile to heavy blows, but cheap to replace if they break.

 

So with just a very few milling cutters you are up and in action, the main use would be frames as described in the other postings here, along with block frames, footplates, toolboxes, square buffer shanks, motor mounts, and potentially gear cutting, which would require a rotary table and tail post added to the milling table.

 

If the miller is bigger the jobs it does is limited only by size, and bigger cutters can be used for single cuts, and surfacing by fly cutting.

 

 

In general the attachment columns for the lathes are a bit limited due to the cross slide, and frankly using the lathe as a horizontal miller would be better, all you need is a few cutters, they can be gripped by the three jaw or an arbour, and a milling slide to suit the lathe. Working sideways does not affect what can be done much, and al jobs for smaller scale locomotives could be done on a lathe used as a miller.

 

The next step up is the FE sourced millers, and then the bigger Bridgeport types and copies, price governs the capacity rather than just the quality. There are some dedicated CNC home user millers on the market, Chester do small ones, and a lot of makes can be converted if you want to go down this route.

 

A final point is be wary of any mill with a round column, they may not have a vertical register that works during movement or register at both ends of the column. The better designs of round, like the MD65 have a continuous gib stripped guide rail, like Bridgeport and Brown and Sharp, but some lathe conversion columns do not have this feature.

 

Thankfully there are now lots of smaller mills with square or box columns where this problem is reduced and the full capacity of the miller is available with full movement. Sieg do a selection, Chester, and Warco do them as well.

 

 

Stephen,

 

[bertiedog]

The lathes which I considered to be beyond it were victims of very poor casting technique, blowholes being the main culprits. In one case a sliding surface was machined over an approx 60% blowhole in a casting. QC seemingly was non existent.

 

The point I was trying to make, and as I seem to have to labour it I am going to leave it after this post, is this: I am not a trained lathe turner or milling machine operator, or indeed engineer. However I have been a model engineer and full size locomotive restorer for in total over thirty years, owning and using machine tools for that length of time. During this time it has been my experience that a good used quality machine tool such as a Myford will give more satisfaction, especially for a beginner who needs instant accuracy from his machine than any seemingly cheap far eastern machine which we both agree will possibly need a good setting up before they can give satisfactory results.

 

This is simply beyond the ability of most first time machine tool owners without enlisting the help of capable assistants.

 

Well we agree then, but I should mention that the Chinese are the casters of both Euro and UK makers lathe beds, and it is merely a matter of checking the purchase, which if it comes from the well known UK suppliers is checked over in the UK and is fully under G/tee.

 

 

I am not defending blow holes in the casting, I do not know the size of what you mentioned, but minor bed blow holes and marks do not actually affect a lathe, it is the average of the point of contact on any touching surface that matters, this is why nicks and marks can be removed safely from lathe beds, and why a worn lathe can still work fine.

 

As you mention experience I am a trained machinist, and a published author in the ME magazine, I do try to post with as much information as I think the readers can take, qualifying everything to cover what has been said in previous postings would hardly be practical.

 

Stephen.

[flubrush]

have a look on here,item no 7554:

http://www.gandmtools.co.uk/cat_branch.php?sub=1

 

It`s a myford ML7 bit garish but it`s still a current lathe & spares & accessories are all avaiable.

 

Note also the Simat 101 lathe on the same page - No. 7536. This is yet again another variation of the Flexispeed lathe which is today the Cowell lathe. There are pictures at the bottom of this page on the lathes.co.uk web site

 

http://www.lathes.co.uk/flexy/index.html

 

Could be a good buy if it has a lot of tooling with it - especially the chucks. They can be a bit expensive to source separately.

 

Jim.

[ozzyo]

A true mill cutter will not drill a hole, it can trim a channel in bites, and move sideways and with smaller mills the four blades make the operation smoother than a two blade slot drill.

 

Here we go,

 

"a true mill cutter will not drill a hole" why not?

 

If you mean a slitting saw, side & face mill, end mill, facing cutter, Woodruff key cutter and some more that I have forgotten OK, but the slot drill is designed for this operation. In that it is ground with one long blade and one short blade, the long blade removes the metal at the center, the cutter is also ground so that the outer edges are approx 1/2 a degree lower than the center. The slot drill is also ground to a finer tolerance than the end mill (slot drill +0, -0.0005") hence the cost. Up to about 3" dia. and above, but at a price.

 

The Clarkson FC3 cutters are a half way house, you can plunge mill (drill) with them but they are not ground to the same tolerance as a slot drill, IIRC they are only made up to 6mm (1/4").

 

The end mill, now this can be a beast up to 4" dia and about 6" long. Available in about three types, Ripper, chip breaker and smooth. Although its called an end mill it is primarily used for cutting on the side and not the base. But it will do both.

 

Now we come to holding the cutters.

 

Face mills can bolt on to the M/C spindle or have a tapered holder that is bolted in to the M/C spindle by the draw bar. Big end mills & slot drills can be held on a 'Dead lock chuck', smaller ones (up to say 1,1/2") in an ' auto lock type chuck'

 

But for people like us a collate type of chuck is probably the best, some have a grip of approx 1mm so you dont have to have a set for metric and a set for imperial.

 

 

As for gear cutting use a dividing head, a lot more flexible than the round table. You can set it to the angle you want and cut straight gears or come in and do the ones with a curved top to them ( forgot the name).

 

I hope this helps Stephen,

 

OzzyO.

 

PS. still telling granny .

 

PPS. sorry to all non millers .

[ClikC]

I'm debating purchasing a Lathe, but i'm put off by the idea of purchasing a small 'hobby' lathe as I learned the (very) basics on a Colchester Student 1800 at exeter college, while i was there as an apprentice before being made redundant last year. I feel this sort of sized lathe I would be more comfortable with.

 

The appeal of powered feed's appeals to me (I liked making cuts with the feeds on the Colchester, but a lot of the other guys prefered going by hand) for making consistent sized Coil springs. I'd like to get into producing my own P4 wheels and axles, but perhaps a small CNC Lathe would be more suitable for that. Having found a love of steel wheels on steel rail, I'm slightly disappointed that Ultrascale's offerings are currently limited to Nickel Silver and Brass.

 

Not being very up on Lathe's in general I'm a little bit lost. Of course the idea situation would be for me to land a production engineering apprenticeship, but despite my efforts nothing of that ilk as yet to surface. Still if I can get my Driving test under my belt then hopefully I'll be more Employable to any Engineering firms out there.

 

Regards

 

Matt

[Pugsley]

I don't think you 'need' a CNC lathe for making your own wheels, but it will certainly speed the whole process up. There's some interesting info on the MMRS website about making your own wheels here:

http://www.mmrs.org.uk/technical/wheels.htm

 

It's something I'd like to do eventually, but I'm going to start off by modifying Slaters wheels for S7 using the S7 Society form tool (which should hopefully be delivered this week B) )

[BobD]

An interesting thread, and very technical. Possibly too technical at times, but some like it that way.

 

I am interested in machining N gauge wheels in bulk, but not sure what equipment I would need. It strikes me that CNC capability would be required, to ensure repeatability. However, should it be a lathe or a mill..........

[alcazar]

Right, here's a question.

At the moment, I don't even have a parting-off tool. (I use a hacksaw blade held on the rotating piece with enough pressure to cut it, then face it off if necessary..........and yes, I know it's dangerous )

 

I've oredered one off e-bay wityh an inserted blade, only to have the seller cancel as he's stopping selling them after having too much trouble with faulty items.

 

I've found others and e-mailed the seller to see if it will fit my lathe, but don't understand his reply.

 

Here's the item: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350343469663&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

 

and this is what he said to my question: Please measure from where the tool sits in your toolpost to the centre of the chuck so i can check your capacity.

 

I asked if he meant from bottom of tool rest to centre height, and he replied: Sorry no, on your toolpost when you put your turning tools in this i need to know from where the tool sits to the centre of the lathe.

 

I STILL don't understand what he means:blink: Since my tool post MOVES on a cross slide, won't this value be meaningless?

 

I've also seen these: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250651033502&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

 

Can someone advise? Thanks.

 

[bertiedog]

Right, here's a question.

At the moment, I don't even have a parting-off tool. (I use a hacksaw blade held on the rotating piece with enough pressure to cut it, then face it off if necessary..........and yes, I know it's dangerous

 

I've oredered one off e-bay wityh an inserted blade, only to have the seller cancel as he's stopping selling them after having too much trouble with faulty items.

 

I've found others and e-mailed the seller to see if it will fit my lathe, but don't understand his reply.

 

Here's the item: http://cgi.ebay.co.u...e=STRK:MEWAX:IT

 

 

The easy answer is exactly what is your lathe, maker and model or photograph, as the seller is advertising it as Myford fit, and his implies a Myford Seven size, and therefore to take it, the tool holder capacity and height must match within reason.

The means it should be a 7 inch capacity and able to take 3/8 inch tools, in other words, a medium to large lathe. If it is a mini lathe, (smaller than the Myford, like a Hobbymat or Sieg, or Cowells, then a smaller mounting type will be needed usually 8 mm or less.

 

 

If the dimensions are needed, they are the clearance over the tool slide, and the nominal distance from the tool holding slot to the centre line. (x and y) and the tool thickness for the lathe

 

However the quickest way is identify the lathe, and what size tools are normally in use, and we can find the right type.

 

Stephen.

[sagaguy]

An interesting thread, and very technical. Possibly too technical at times, but some like it that way.

 

I am interested in machining N gauge wheels in bulk, but not sure what equipment I would need. It strikes me that CNC capability would be required, to ensure repeatability. However, should it be a lathe or a mill..........

 

 

Absolutly a small lathe & not CNC.Mount the wheel on a small arbour turned in the chuck so that it will be concentric & once you have the first wheel to size,check the cross slide dial reading & if you are only taking off a few thou,lock the cross slide & so long as the top slide is parallel to the job,use that,(not best practice), or if you have a leadscrew,move the saddle so that all wheels come out the same size.

 

Ray.

[bertiedog]

Ozzyo, with Reference to and continuance of.....

 

To give a little light to newcomers to mills, and too leave out too many complexities, the two types of end mills commonly used are slot and end mills, and the end mill will not drill down as the cutting faces do not cross the centre.

• The reason is a centre hole is left to allow the grinding between centres in manufacture, this allows great accuracy in grind and re-grinding to sharpen the mill.
• The four teeth can be arranged to sweep over the centre though, and this type will drill down in material.
• The same applies to slot drills, but two blade with a centre are now rarely encountered in the workshop.

These days both slot and end mills are centreless ground and equally accurate for our home machinist purposes. However a centre ground mill from say Staul will be more accurate than a slot drill, so keep in mind there are exceptions.

 

For home use four of more blades are better for other reasons, the cuts are smoother as slot drills are prone to vibration in light mills, and are noisier than a mill cutter with more blades. Most home mills are not able to handle big slot cutters or even ripper grade mills. I was trained on a 6ton Brown and Sharp, and that was not going to vibrate......ever!

 

To ease into home milling, keep the cutters small, and multi tooth, but use slot drill mills as well, especially in small sizes under 10mm. A newcomer may not realise that even a small endmill can surface massive surfaces, it just takes longer, unacceptable in factory conditions, but perfectly all right at home.

 

In a factory you could gash cut in one go a trench of 6 inch deep and 2inches wide in one pass on the B&S,

you would not do this at home!!!! At home with milling it has to be "Small Nibbles", in stages to achieve the same bigger cuts.........

 

At first, with all lighter machines, steer clear of flycutters for large surfaces, they cause out of balance vibrations on large diameters, and must be used with light cuts and great care. A fly cutter is a blade on an arm that swings around as a single cutting point only, at saw 4 inch diameter, used to create large smooth surfaces. Once you are used to ordinary milling , then move on to fly cutting and single point tools.

 

A modification of fly cutting is used for gear cutting, (along with form tools), and as I said before a rotary table is needed, and these days all normal types available to home user come with the full set of division plates required to do cutting like this.

 

Yes, it is quite possible to get small tables without fixed, (but adjustable), divisions, and with these for gear cutting then division plate sets are made or the changewheels of the lathe can be pressed into use to do the divisions.

 

Stephen.

[alcazar]

Bertie: my lathe is an Emco Compact 5. The only tools I have for it, apart from metric drills, are a set of 1/4" tool-steel ground tools, l/h, r/h and end, made for me by a friend I used to work with, (ie: ground to shape).

 

They work, but need to be shimmed up to centre height.

 

I'll try and take measurements off the lathe, like what size tool will fit, and the clearances you mentioned on the drawing, tonight, once the loft has cooled down a bit.

 

I'll also try and further identify the milling machine, but I do know it has a co-ordinate table with it. I have a collet chuck and full set of 25mm collets, but no LATHE collet chuck although there is one on e-bay at £56 at the moment. I could also do with a fine feed attachment for the milling machine, it has just a lever at the moment, like a pillar drill, which it greatly resembles. It also has a decent 0-10mm keyed chuck for drilling etc.

Thanks.

[Christian]

Thanks again for the replies, needless to say my research continues and I have some questions.

 

I have been looking a the various tools and cutters for a mini lathe in particular the parting tool.

There are many references to the use of the parting tool in particular the use of the tool cutting from the rear of the piece as well as on the front of the piece to be parted. What is the difference and what are the benefits with the two arrangements?

 

I have also been looking at boring tools and the fitment to the tool post, also a boring head is available what is this? Many of the boring tools available have a cylindrical body so how do these fit in the tool holder on a mini lathe?

 

I have been checking out the many videos on YouTube and such like on metal turning, I have seen some very fine work on round bar where the piece has been fitted to a 3 jaw chuck. It was my understanding that collets would be better for such fine work?

 

Of the many tool bits available most seem to be made from either HSS or carbide what are the benifits of each?

 

I understand the use of dead centres and live centres, but what are half centres used for?

 

No doubt I shall have many more questions but any help would be apprieciated.

[sagaguy]

Thanks again for the replies, needless to say my research continues and I have some questions.

 

I have been looking a the various tools and cutters for a mini lathe in particular the parting tool.

There are many references to the use of the parting tool in particular the use of the tool cutting from the rear of the piece as well as on the front of the piece to be parted. What is the difference and what are the benefits with the two arrangements?

 

I have also been looking at boring tools and the fitment to the tool post, also a boring head is available what is this? Many of the boring tools available have a cylindrical body so how do these fit in the tool holder on a mini lathe?

 

I have been checking out the many videos on YouTube and such like on metal turning, I have seen some very fine work on round bar where the piece has been fitted to a 3 jaw chuck. It was my understanding that collets would be better for such fine work?

 

Of the many tool bits available most seem to be made from either HSS or carbide what are the benifits of each?

 

I understand the use of dead centres and live centres, but what are half centres used for?

 

No doubt I shall have many more questions but any help would be apprieciated.

 

 

Rear parting tools:-These are some time used when the bearings are a bit loose on the headstock because they exert a downward pressure on the work & stop it climbing over the job.On a bigger lathe,the bearings are much better,incidentaly,never part off between centres.

 

Tool Bits:-carbide tip tools last much longer between sharpening but you can`t grind them to any shapes that you may need,you need high speed steel blanks for that,carbide insert tools are where you buy the shank & fit carbide tips,when they are blunt you throw them away.

 

Half centres are used when you want to turn a wheel seat on an axle & it provides clearance for the tool,look on my pic of my chassis & there is a wheel fitted to an axle & the other end has been turned down using a half centre.

 

Ray.

[bertiedog]

Can I add on rear parting, apart from suiting Myford etc., also allows a parting tool to be left as part of the set up on a bigger lathe, all the work is done by the front toolpost, and then the upside down tool is drawn towards you by the tool slide and parts the work.

Smaller lathes can't always take rear toolpost due to the practical lack of space,(or mounting slot), and there is no option but to use the front tool post.

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

Boring heads are mentioned and these do not go in the toolpost, (they can but unusual), they are a tool holder that fits the morse taper and can move the tool tip on a calibrated slide as required, to bore a particular diameter in work held in the chuck etc..

 

The same work can be done with a tool post mounted boring bar, but the tailstock mounted type saves the space on the toolpost for other set-up.

 

Most of this refers to production methods to save time in a factory set-up and can be disregarded for home machinist work.

 

Boring heads are also used to bore holes in work mounted on the cross slide, and the boring head fits the headstock morse, and the whole thing rotates as it works in to the workpiece, which is stationary.

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

Also mentioned is the three jaw chuck and it's accuracy, especially against collet chucks, and collect chucks bet any other chuck hands down.

 

But the poor old three jaws gets a bad press from a lot of users and it dates from the fact that they are so used in a factory that they get worn out.

 

Any modern scroll 3 jaw is basically accurate to hold round items, and do not forget you are holding the blank not the work, so the accuracy of the chuck barely matters.

 

Better three jaws exist, like the grip true type, adjustable to get accuracy, but do not let the stories of the basic types being rubbish take grip.

 

Some older UK made type also had "ramped" scrolls, these gripped tight , but the jaws move in and out dependant on the diameter, and once worn are all over the place.

 

When working with any chuck it holds the scrap part, and all the accurate work is parted away, so the fact it might be out of true is neither here nor there.

 

A collet is a tight fitting bored hole, and just fits the one size( unless a special type), and holds with supreme accuracy so can grip part turned items and maintain accuracy.

 

Stephen.

[sagaguy]

Also mentioned is the three jaw chuck and it's accuracy, especially against collet chucks, and collect chucks bet any other chuck hands down.

 

But the poor old three jaws gets a bad press from a lot of users and it dates from the fact that they are so used in a factory that they get worn out.

 

Any modern scroll 3 jaw is basically accurate to hold round items, and do not forget you are holding the blank not the work, so the accuracy of the chuck barely matters.

 

Better three jaws exist, like the grip true type, adjustable to get accuracy, but do not let the stories of the basic types being rubbish.

 

Some older UK made type also had "ramped" scrolls, these gripped tight , but the jaws move in and out dependant on the diameter, and once worn are all over the place.

 

When working with any chuck it holds the scrap part, and all the accurate work is parted away, so the fact it might be out of true is neither here nor there.

 

A collet is a tight fitting bored hole, and just fits the one size( unless a special type), and holder with supreme accuracy so can grip part turned items and maintain accuracy.

 

Stephen.

 

Many years ago,i managed to wreck a Burnerd griptru chuck,This must have been in the late 70`s,to replace it,i bought a Myford screwed body 3 jaw chuck & i keep it for Axle turning Etc.because it only has a run out of 2-3 thou,very useful!!!

 

Ray.

[bertiedog]

Bertie: my lathe is an Emco Compact 5. The only tools I have for it, apart from metric drills, are a set of 1/4" tool-steel ground tools, l/h, r/h and end, made for me by a friend I used to work with, (ie: ground to shape).

 

They work, but need to be shimmed up to centre height.

 

I'll try and take measurements off the lathe, like what size tool will fit, and the clearances you mentioned on the drawing, tonight, once the loft has cooled down a bit.

 

I'll also try and further identify the milling machine, but I do know it has a co-ordinate table with it. I have a collet chuck and full set of 25mm collets, but no LATHE collet chuck although there is one on e-bay at £56 at the moment. I could also do with a fine feed attachment for the milling machine, it has just a lever at the moment, like a pillar drill, which it greatly resembles. It also has a decent 0-10mm keyed chuck for drilling etc.

Thanks.

 

What you need is done by Chronos the small parting holder on

 

http://www.chronos.l...g_Tools_82.html

 

Half way down, the about ten pounds type, 8mm shank mounting, this is perfect for the Emco 5. There are Glanz types as well, but far more costly.

 

The 8mm type will fit direct to the lathe as standard, it will not fit the accessory four way tool post which would need the 6mm version.

 

The shimming that you are using means the tools are 6mm and really the lathe takes 8mm, but of course you can use the 6mm as well. The 6mm also fit the four way post and adjustable insert toolposts.

 

Hope this helps.

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

A collet chuck fitted to the mill was mentioned, by Alcazar, and of course this should be able to be fitted to the lathe as well, just needs an adaptor plate, no loss of accuracy, the adaptor is machined in place on the lathe.

 

If the mill is Emco brand,(or a clone), the whole collet may already fit the lathe anyway, just needs a bit of inspection to find out what's there.

 

Stephen.

[alcazar]

Thanks for that, Bertie, I'll look into Chronos for a parting tool then.

 

The collet chuck that came with the mill was different to the one for the lathe, which fits to the spindle with three bolts, like the chucks do. The mill one fit on a taper. Probably a Morse?

 

Sorry, double post. Can't find which one of those you mean, they go from £14 to £8..........

[bertiedog]

Thanks for that, Bertie, I'll look into Chronos for a parting tool then.

 

The collet chuck that came with the mill was different to the one for the lathe, which fits to the spindle with three bolts, like the chucks do. The mill one fit on a taper. Probably a Morse?

 

Sorry, double post. Can't find which one of those you mean, they go from £14 to £8..........

 

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

Thanks for that, Bertie, I'll look into Chronos for a parting tool then.

 

The collet chuck that came with the mill was different to the one for the lathe, which fits to the spindle with three bolts, like the chucks do. The mill one fit on a taper. Probably a Morse?

 

 

If the lathe has no morse, (unlikely), the nose which has the three bolts should come off and a morse will be there in the headstock, if there is none an adaptor can be added on the nose and use the bolts to secure in place, but would be bulky due to the existing morse on the back of the collet being out side the head stock.

It may be possible to remove the morse tang or change it to one which will fit the Emco morse ( I am sure there is one there).

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

Yes just checked the Emco has a standard number two Morse Taper mount in the head stock, how the chuck is held on it does not say, but the three bolts seem to hold the chuck to a backplate screwed to the flange surrounding the morse taper, so I assume the whole chuck is unscrewed, the retaining bolts are not meant to be removed.

 

The other way they mount chucks on lathes is the other way round, the flange remains with the nose and the chuck has three studs out of the back to do the retaining with nuts in the way of Hobbymat. With the nuts removed the chuck comes away and you can get at the morse taper, leaving the surrounding flange in place.

 

So it seems that the collet on the mill will fit easily, it should be number two morse, if it is number one, then a sleeve converter will be needed, ( easily sourced). Should the collet chuck have number three morse, then you are out of luck, unless the number three removes from the back of the chuck.

 

Any adaptors can be made on the lathe and miller.

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

A further web search shows the Emco 8 and 5 share the mounting system and it is like the Hobbymat, three or four nuts secure the chuck to the nose on studs. These are not the bolts at the front of the chuck, they are behind the flange which remains on the lathe.