PECO announces its entry into the TT gauge market

[Golden Fleece 30]

My view, and always has been however anyone interprets it is, we have all got our own interests and enjoy what we want ourselves. I have had people criticise me for liking and using Tri-ang but I don't criticise them for their finescale modelling. This hobby is about enjoying ourselves and not worrying, or complaining about others. Peco introducing a "new" scale, or however you want to interpret, is to be commended. I personally won't be buying the models as they dont suit my scale which is unfortunate but I am happy with what is available already and I will look at any layouts made at 120 providing their British, I bypass all non British layouts as that is my choice but accept others love it.  

At the end of the day the saying is "you cannot please all the people all the time".

[DavidLong]

17 hours ago, Pmorgancym said:

In fact like for like, you can see they are poles appart.  Yes there are compromises with both, but the farish one Inwoukd suggest is perfectly.acceptable to most eyes and upscaled to tt120 would satisfy most.

 

And these look even better:  http://www.2mm.org.uk/small_suppliers/nigelhunt/upgrade-loco-kits.htm

 

David

[eldomtom2]

12 minutes ago, whart57 said:

 

The dock tank is hardly typical British outline is it? It's an American design that only made it onto British rails because of the peculiar circumstances at the end of WW2. The WD 2-10-0 is also not a typical British loco.  The DJH kit was produced for the Dutch market (they produced a number of kits of Dutch steam locomotives, I have an NS 7000 4-4-0T under construction) where WD locos ran most heavy freight trains between 1945 and the end of steam.

 

If TT 1:120 is going to follow the British outline HO model of desperately grabbing whatever comes available from overseas markets then it's not going to take off.

All that has absolutely nothing to do with your original points about HO scale compromises.

[Hobby]

15 minutes ago, whart57 said:

If TT 1:120 is going to follow the British outline HO model of desperately grabbing whatever comes available from overseas markets then it's not going to take off.

 

That I entirely agree with (hearing everyone going "Phew!"), but it is also why I keep saying to you why not wait and see?!

 

(Please!!) :)

[andythenorth]

12 minutes ago, Golden Fleece 30 said:

At the end of the day the saying is "you cannot please all the people all the time".

 

That needs updated to be more appropriate to model railway (and Lego) forums.

 

"You cannot please some people, ever" might be a nice rewrite 🙂 💰

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, whart57 said:

 

Of course they do. There are hundreds to 3mm scale on 14.2mm gauge track, hundreds more in 2mm FS and let's not start on EM and P4.

 

There aren't any from a commercial manufacturer and yours are kits or scratchbuilt. It can be done, but can it be done as a commercial proposition?

Which will only be revealed when somebody launches products in TT-120, and succeeds or fails in the attempt. Arguing over which outcome we consider most likely is pretty irrelevant. The one thing we can  safely infer is that whoever has been recruited to accompany Peco in this adventure, will have already ruled out revisiting TT3 in r-t-r form. 

 

The more fruitful discussion to be had is how we'd like it to be approached by whoever that is. It's pretty certain somebody does have it in their sights purely from the way it was puffed in the Railway Modeller.

 

Only If that turns out not to be Hornby, might commercial TT3 still have a future. However, it would (IMHO) require nerves of steel and a neck of brass, to relaunch in 2022, something with a slightly worse scale/gauge discrepancy than OO. I just think the general attitude to accuracy has changed too much since Tri-ang bailed out of TT3 all those years ago.

 

Peco, alone, has announced anything concrete so far, and they have it covered however things might turn out. If UK outline TT-120 does take off, they'll sell significantly more of their track. If it doesn't, we can be confident that they judged the existing continental market for it to be viable before starting this hare running.

 

John

Edited June 11, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[009 micro modeller]

13 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Which will only be revealed when somebody launches products in TT-120, and succeeds or fails in the attempt. Arguing over which outcome we consider most likely is pretty irrelevant. The one thing we can infer is that whoever has been recruited to accompany Peco in this adventure has already ruled out revisiting TT3 in r-t-r form. 

 

The more fruitful discussion to be had is how we'd like it to be approached by whoever that is. It's pretty certain somebody does have it in their sights purely from the way it was puffed in the Railway Modeller.

 

Only If that turns out not to be Hornby, might commercial TT3 still have a future. However, it would (IMHO) require nerves of steel and a neck of brass, to relaunch in 2022, something with a slightly worse scale/gauge discrepancy than OO. I just think the general attitude to accuracy has changed too much since Tri-ang bailed out of TT3 all those years ago.

 

Peco, alone, has announced anything concrete so far, and they have it covered however things might turn out. If UK outline TT-120 does take off, they'll sell significantly more of the track. If it doesn't, we can be confident that they judged the existing continental market for it to be viable before starting this hare running.

 

John

Regardless of the debate over gauge accuracy, I feel like there has to be a (at least partially) commercial reason for Peco to have chosen 1:120 rather than the existing 3mm for British outline, which would suggest that another manufacturer is about to release something British outline in 1:120.

[bradfordbuffer]

1 hour ago, whart57 said:

 

So basically your argument is not that there should be no compromise but that we should have a different compromise ........

 

Actually I do hope any manufacturer is checking in. I would hope that the issues I'm raising aren't news to them, I'd be a lot more confident if it wasn't.

Everything is a compromise 

4 coach trains when you really want 12!

Nigela lawson in kitchen.... jody Marsh in bed room.....and all you get is your wife! Good job she don't look at railway stuff

[Dunsignalling]

22 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Regardless of the debate over gauge accuracy, I feel like there has to be a (at least partially) commercial reason for Peco to have chosen 1:120 rather than the existing 3mm for British outline, which would suggest that another manufacturer is about to release something British outline in 1:120.

I think we can take that as read. Peco is a pragmatic company with a very good grasp of commercial reality.

 

Without someone else already recruited to provide British outline trains to run on it, there would be no logic in promoting the track the way they have.

 

The launch publicity would have been aimed purely at existing users of continental TT-120. 

 

John

Edited June 11, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

8 minutes ago, bradfordbuffer said:

Everything is a compromise 

4 coach trains when you really want 12!

Nigela lawson in kitchen.... jody Marsh in bed room.....and all you get is your wife! Good job she don't look at railway stuff

Jody Marsh? Really? 🤢

[frobisher]

Arguments about scale to one side (though 1:120 is the only sensible commercial path to go down now) I'm wondering if Peco have been potentially really clever here.

 

They've seemingly gone with the N "code 55" profile for pretty good reasons of robustness with its necessary compromises.  Could you satisfactorily strike another compromise on that at manufacture perhaps, that of dressing it up to look "Bullhead-ish" with a different track web/chairs?  Would that be "close enough" for enough people?  If so, it would have the advantage of not requiring the normal faffing of joining BH to FB rail sections and they could quickly replicate the point work and crossings.

 

If not, "code 55" BH rail with the same foot could be drawn I suppose, and would still connect the same.  The main compromise remains the one the range already will have, that of the lack of chair detail between the rails.

Edited June 11, 2022 by frobisher

[Vanguard 5374]

Will do a separate thread for my work (as it’s not Peco) but I’ve decided to head to 1:120 British Outline for my modelling due to size constraints.

 

 

I have been working on this for the past couple of days, as a simple loco to get running for my needs alongside some continental items which will be adapted. Will be heading to my local shop soon to get some TT trackwork to work with

[whart57]

44 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Which will only be revealed when somebody launches products in TT-120, and succeeds or fails in the attempt. Arguing over which outcome we consider most likely is pretty irrelevant. The one thing we can  safely infer is that whoever has been recruited to accompany Peco in this adventure, will have already ruled out revisiting TT3 in r-t-r form. 

 

The more fruitful discussion to be had is how we'd like it to be approached by whoever that is. It's pretty certain somebody does have it in their sights purely from the way it was puffed in the Railway Modeller.

 

 

Any manufacturer of any size revisiting TT3 in r-t-r is doomed to fail. And I say that from a position of having attempted to do the sums of making RTR a paying, or at least non-loss making, proposition. What Geoff Helliwell and Lenny Seeney have done with "near ready to run" (see the June RM) is amazing stuff, and I have to say should be regarded as the bench mark that RTR TT 120 has to match in terms of detail and running quality, but like everything else in 3mm scale it is small scale cottage industry stuff.

 

I have tried here though to initiate that fruitful discussion about how we'd like it approached. This sort of discussion can go down the rabbit hole of "Pannier or Jinty?" - "Pannier - OK which one?" while causing minor explosions north and east of Didcot. Instead I have tried to bring in my own experience of working in a nearby scale and with a correct scale-gauge dimension. The physics involved of getting a model railway loco to negotiate sharper than prototype curves and go through the sort of turnouts only seen in cramped industrial locations can't be wished away. There are different ways of approaching this and for me flangeless drivers, fat wheels and footplates 2mm too wide would be deal breakers. It's no good waving this away with an airy "but if it looks right ...." because there are many examples from the past where that approach in HO or N did not look right.

[Hobby]

I feel that the RTR manufacturers, especially those already selling N and TT scales will be fully aware of the compromises using sharp curves and near scale track gauge makes to any model, they've been doing it for decades and improving on it as they go! They are also far more experienced in manufacturing a model that will sell and look acceptable to most modellers than any of us. As an example of what the majority will accept you only have to look at the couplings that RTR stock uses, especially in that photo of that N loco. What are deal breakers to you aren't for most of us, otherwise current RTR would not have as big a market as it has, and it's us those models will be aimed at, not finescale modellers.

[bradfordbuffer]

39 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Jody Marsh? Really? 🤢

Don't want a nice one in bedroom....! Oh and Mrs hinch to do cleaning!

[whart57]

18 minutes ago, frobisher said:

They've seemingly gone with the N "code 55" profile for pretty good reasons of robustness with its necessary compromises.  Could you satisfactorily strike another compromise on that at manufacture perhaps, that of dressing it up to look "Bullhead-ish" with a different track web/chairs?  Would that be "close enough" for enough people?  If so, it would have the advantage of not requiring the normal faffing of joining BH to FB rail sections and they could quickly replicate the point work and crossings.

 

If not, "code 55" BH rail with the same foot could be drawn I suppose, and would still connect the same.  The main compromise remains the one the range already will have, that of the lack of chair detail between the rails.

 

Code 55 is pretty much spot on for prototypical size and using the same technique as for their N gauge quasi-finescale track is a master stroke. The fact it's the same rail profile also makes the economics more friendly.

 

If you are going to have rail that low and wheels that don't require compensation or springing to stay on the track then you can't have chairs on the inside. To tell the truth, I think the BH/FB differences won't be an issue.

[Heacham]

15 hours ago, andythenorth said:

Eh, such valve gear.  Such moving parts.  Such wheelbase.  Such Gützold:  https://www.guetzold.de/Modelle-TT

 Beautiful Locos but will enthusiasts in the UK pay between £400 and £700 pounds for a TT loco.

[whart57]

22 minutes ago, Hobby said:

I feel that the RTR manufacturers, especially those already selling N and TT scales will be fully aware of the compromises using sharp curves and near scale track gauge makes to any model, they've been doing it for decades and improving on it as they go!

 

Quite. The modern N gauge wheel is much finer than the one of forty years ago. Dapol can only get the wheels under the footplate of a Pannier though because

 

1. GWR locos are 6" wider than many contemporaries

2. British N is 0.7mm undergauge

 

I note that the Continental TT steam outline locomotives are all ones with a high footplate

 

Would you accept that motion gear sticking out beyond the footplate would be wrong for all but the handful of prototypes where that was actually the case?

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, bradfordbuffer said:

Everything is a compromise 

4 coach trains when you really want 12!

Nigela lawson in kitchen.... jody Marsh in bed room.....and all you get is your wife! Good job she don't look at railway stuff

Well they wouldn't be cooking in your kitchen or doing other stuff in the bedroom for long if you can't spell their names.  😄

 

Nigella and Jodie.

[Moria15]

15 minutes ago, Heacham said:

 Beautiful Locos but will enthusiasts in the UK pay between £400 and £700 pounds for a TT loco.

Yes if it is to that quality.

 

So often we have screams about the cost of locos etc..  and then, when the manufacturer dumbs the loco down a bit to save some pounds, the same people screaming about cost then start screaming about it being dumbed down.

 

In older days, in N gauge we had a producer called CJM (now sadly passed on).  His locos were the absolute dog's whatsits.. they were accurate, they ran like a dream and they went on forever...  I still have 8 of them, some nearly 10 years old now.    Even 10 years ago these were selling for just shy of £250 - 300 and they were made in batches of 30  - 40 at a time.   Every batch was sold out and waiting lists were sometimes upto 3 years for specific models.

 

IF the quality and accuracy is there, then the price will be paid.

 

Graham

Edited June 11, 2022 by Moria15

[Hobby]

7 minutes ago, whart57 said:

Would you accept that motion gear sticking out beyond the footplate would be wrong for all but the handful of prototypes where that was actually the case?

 

I don't know how they'll do it so I said wait and see. Which you don't seem to understand.

[Heacham]

3 hours ago, Allegheny1600 said:

Thanks!

The cows were sold by Prieser as H0 scale - maybe they’re suffering the close = large, far away = small illustrated by Father Dougal?

Being European they are probably based on Holsteins which are bigger than the old British Friesians  many of todays milking herds are now Friesian crossed with Holstein.

[whart57]

19 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

I don't know how they'll do it so I said wait and see. Which you don't seem to understand.

 

You can wait and see but you still need some criteria to judge against

[Hobby]

 I'm not a rivet counter or finescale modeller, so as long as it look OK from normal viewing distance then that's fine. Sorry I can't be more specific!

Edited June 11, 2022 by Hobby

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Heacham said:

 Beautiful Locos but will enthusiasts in the UK pay between £400 and £700 pounds for a TT loco.

They happily pay that kind of money for O gauge diesels that are arguably less well-made/presented than the Gutzold TT-120 products illustrated.

 

I suppose it all depends on whether you expect model locomotives to be priced by the kilo, like potatoes.

 

That said, such prices will only be justified if quality significantly exceeds most of what we are currently offered in r-t-r OO.

 

John

Edited June 11, 2022 by Dunsignalling