PECO announces its entry into the TT gauge market

[Asterix2012]

It seems that Gaugemaster are in on this as well 

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/search?q=Gaugemaster TT&sortValue=1&mc_cid=84f4629deb&mc_eid=0753950d8c

 

I also received an email update  from Rails of Sheffield that Gaugemaster are looking to do a class 66 in this scale

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Asterix2012 said:

It seems that Gaugemaster are in on this as well 

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/search?q=Gaugemaster TT&sortValue=1&mc_cid=84f4629deb&mc_eid=0753950d8c

 

I also received an email update  from Rails of Sheffield that Gaugemaster are looking to do a class 66 in this scale

 

Way upthread:

 

On 06/06/2022 at 16:19, John M Upton said:

I did post this on the other now locked thread but for those who missed it, Gaugemaster also today announced a 1:120 TT range:

https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/news/article/view/id/712/

 

Includes a Class 66 coming along too.

 

On 06/06/2022 at 16:23, Phil Parker said:

 

I think this is an existing model produced some time ago, and sold with a British livery rather than a new tooling.

 

[Ravenser]

Another perspective on this:

 

Perhaps we've all missed the huge  commercial significance of Peco's development of the uni-frog.

 

Peco had got themselves into a jam with a huge proliferation of ranges:

 

- 16.5mm - Setrack/ Code 100 Streamline insulfrog / Code 100 Streamline livefrog / Code 75 live frog

- 9mm - Code 80 Streamline  insulfrog / Code 80 Streamline livefrog / Code 55 live frog

 

That's 7 seperate ranges for the retailer to carry, before we get to the more specialised niche ranges:

 

- Gauge O

- OO9 

- Code 83 US HO

- Code 75 OO Bullhead

- HOm 12mm gauge

 

the practical results of that were that many retailers carry a limited range of code 75/code 55

 

Unifrog allows Peco to compress those 7 bread and butter ranges to 4:

16.5mm Code 100, Code 75,  

9mm Code 80, Code 55

 

That gives Peco economies of sale and means fewer tools, used more intensively. It reduces their own stockholding of finished product

 

The space freed up on retailers' shelves and in their stockrooms will be filled with more marginal items in the  ranges. In the first instance that will be more code 75 16.5mm, more code 55 N and Gauge O

 

Lo and behold, Peco have been investing in code75 over the last decade - concrete sleeper flexible, steel sleeper flexible, bi-bloc flexible, and concrete sleeper points. Crowned by the code 75 OO bullhead range.

 

A lot of people were put off code 75 by the need to wire up live frogs. Unifrog removes that difficulty, without needing an additional product range. Expect to see a slow migration from code 100 to code 75

 

And in the  last few years OO9 track has developed into a full range, with "mainline" track and points and Setrack.

 

I suspect the unifrog integration has now developed to the stage where it has freed up factory capacity at Peco to allow the introduction of a new niche range. The only commercial scales  where Peco have had no presence have been S and TT-120

 

This announcement gives them TT track for the TT market. There could be some kind of tie-up there with Hornby-Arnold TT. In the first instance this will be for the Mittel-Europa market but a wooden PO wagon is a toe in British waters. If someone else comes to the party with 2-3  RTR British wagons , Peco could tool up a couple of wagon body kits under the Parkside range  to fit their new chassis

[Ravenser]

13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Way upthread:

 

 

 

 

 

Freightliner are using Class 66s in Poland , Germany and the Ukraine. I think DB Schenker have some in Eastern Europe too. These should be attractive to the core TT market. So should accompanying wagons

 

Beyond that, add a Class 150, a 56 , and some more ferrywagons (VIX anyone?)

[bradfordbuffer]

4 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

It's a bit ear!y in the morning here so my math mind may be a bit foggy but wouldn't 12mm track be ideal for 3' gauge in 4mm scale?  Perhaps this has already been mentioned way back in this thread!

5.5mm narrow gauge modelers used 12mm track..

Excellent layout in scale back in 80s with live lichen! Owner use to spray water on it at shows

[luke_stevens]

I think the notable this is that Peco HAVEN'T announced TT set track. If they had it would have suggested beginners trainset and the launch of a "range" that would allow others to do locos, coaches, wagons...

 

Peco will have real numbers as the the demand for 12mm track on the Continent. They won't have that for the UK markets as at the moment as it is pretty much zero. The business plan will be based on prospective sales to the European mainland market. 

 

Tolling up locomotives is expensive. Is there a good business case for spending over a million pounds tooling up a 66? Yes, there is an existing market even if only 1% sell in the UK. Is there a good business case for spending over a million pounds tooling up a GWR Castle? No, not at this stage. There is currently very little existing UK market. Maybe later but not yet.

 

What exposure the Aug / Sept issues of the German railway magazines give will be interesting.

 

Luke

[Dunsignalling]

12 minutes ago, luke_stevens said:

I think the notable this is that Peco HAVEN'T announced TT set track. If they had it would have suggested beginners trainset and the launch of a "range" that would allow others to do locos, coaches, wagons...

 

Peco will have real numbers as the the demand for 12mm track on the Continent. They won't have that for the UK markets as at the moment as it is pretty much zero. The business plan will be based on prospective sales to the European mainland market. 

 

Tolling up locomotives is expensive. Is there a good business case for spending over a million pounds tooling up a 66? Yes, there is an existing market even if only 1% sell in the UK. Is there a good business case for spending over a million pounds tooling up a GWR Castle? No, not at this stage. There is currently very little existing UK market. Maybe later but not yet.

 

What exposure the Aug / Sept issues of the German railway magazines give will be interesting.

 

Luke

One simple explanation might be that Peco don't want to target TT-120 products at beginners and train set buyers. 

 

It's a fairly specialist market segment in those countries where it is already "a thing".  

 

If they were to introduce a range of S scale track and points, I wouldn't expect that to include sectional track, either.

 

I do still expect at least one loco to come from somewhere, though. Without that, what's the point of making the wagon? It's not like there's an option of kit-building UK outline TT-120.

 

John

Edited June 12, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Moxy]

36 minutes ago, bradfordbuffer said:

5.5mm narrow gauge modelers used 12mm track..

Excellent layout in scale back in 80s with live lichen! Owner use to spray water on it at shows

 

That was the Gwynant Valley Railway by the late Malcolm Savage.

 

Link here to 5.5mm Association pages.

 

http://www.55ng.co.uk/archive1/ms3a.php

[luke_stevens]

12 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

One simple explanation might be that Peco don't want to target TT-120 products at beginners and train set buyers. 

 

It's a fairly specialist market segment in those countries where it is already "a thing".  

 

If they were to introduce a range of S scale track and points, I wouldn't expect that to include sectional track, either.

 

John

 

Which means it more about cannibalising and existing Peco market (00, N, 0) rather than building a new market, where as on the mainland it is supporting an existing market (track by Tillig / Kuehn).

 

I keep think back to when Airfix / GMR launched. They started with 2 loco's, 3 coaches and 4 wagons (Ignoring the American items) - that seems more like announcing a "range".

 

Will be interesting to see how it develops :)

 

Luke

 

 

[whart57]

4 hours ago, JohnR said:

I think that people have been talking too much about this being for the continental market. Yes, it will suit there, but Peco's own advertising clearly states this is a "new British Outline Scale". 

 

To a British audience certainly. But there is also the great unmentionable here in that European outlets are reporting supply chain problems in UK products and that the extra red tape eats into PECO's profit margins in Europe.

[NCB]

I'm a great admirer of the Corgi TT engines which nicely capture the presence of the prototype. They have cast metal bodies. As I understand it, this approach is potentially cheaper while adding useful weight. Wonder if this might be used to produce new models while keeping costs down.

[andythenorth]

2 hours ago, Ravenser said:

These should be attractive to the core TT market. So should accompanying wagons

 

In the realms of pure speculation, the Dapol VTG sliding-roof steel coil wagon is long-lived and saw widespread use in Europe and UK (1970s onwards).  Similarly the Dapol clay slurry tankers range wide.  Both would be suitable with a 66.

 

Tillig have an EANOS bogie open, but it has doors and wouldn't be an exact match for any of the similar UK Freightliner / Touax / GBRF bogie opens.

https://www.tillig.com/eng/Produkte/produktinfo-76540.html

Edited June 12, 2022 by andythenorth

[Moria15]

1 hour ago, luke_stevens said:

Peco will have real numbers as the the demand for 12mm track on the Continent. They won't have that for the UK markets as at the moment as it is pretty much zero. The business plan will be based on prospective sales to the European mainland market. 

 

 

I was thinking this until I read in the Modeller that the sleeper spacing is specifically to UK spacing.   Is there a major difference in sleeper spacing from UK to Germany?  I know there is a lot of science about this out there, but I was wondering if this is a relevant comment from Peco?

 

Graham

[t-b-g]

Particularly with the choice of building kits for the first launch, I would be astonished if there isn't somebody, somewhere developing a range of locos and stock that would go with a GWR branch line theme.

 

A Pannier tank, a B set, a brake van and a couple of wagons (an open and a van plus the coal wagon already announced by Peco) and we have a good start. 

Edited June 12, 2022 by t-b-g
typo

[bradfordbuffer]

1 hour ago, Moxy said:

 

That was the Gwynant Valley Railway by the late Malcolm Savage.

 

Link here to 5.5mm Association pages.

 

http://www.55ng.co.uk/archive1/ms3a.php

It was a brill layout in its round roundy version ... and 12mm gauge to keep it topical! 

Edited June 12, 2022 by bradfordbuffer

[luke_stevens]

27 minutes ago, Moria15 said:

 

I was thinking this until I read in the Modeller that the sleeper spacing is specifically to UK spacing.   Is there a major difference in sleeper spacing from UK to Germany?  I know there is a lot of science about this out there, but I was wondering if this is a relevant comment from Peco?

 

Graham

 Going back to the video Peco say the track is the NEM standards (Normen europäischer Modelleisenbahnen) and the medium point is "coincidently" similar to but not a B6 point.

 

"3:04: produced to nem standards and featuring" and "3:47 coincidentally this turnout is very close to the BR B6" - so it is NOT a British design of point.

 

We'll have to wait to see what it actually is like when the track arrives but it sounds as if it is aligned to the European market.

 

Luke 

[Robert Shrives]

22 minutes ago, bradfordbuffer said:

It was a brill layout in its round roundy version ... and 12mm gauge to keep it topical! 

Indeed a brilliant layout until my cat wrecked it. Sad to report it is now just a set of bare boards, the buildings survived for a while but age took hold of the plasticard so now only most of the loco shed remains. The station building disappeared while on display at Minffordd after a gala so hopefully the owner still enjoys it.  

Looking forward to the new track and how it will help all 12mm track users - fiddle yards for some, main tracks for others  in the3mm world and then in the 1:120 world new layouts suited to the smaller home. 

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, luke_stevens said:

 

Which means it more about cannibalising and existing Peco market (00, N, 0) rather than building a new market, where as on the mainland it is supporting an existing market (track by Tillig / Kuehn).

 

I keep think back to when Airfix / GMR launched. They started with 2 loco's, 3 coaches and 4 wagons (Ignoring the American items) - that seems more like announcing a "range".

 

Will be interesting to see how it develops :)

 

Luke

 

 

I don't really think it will. Plenty of people model in more than one scale.

 

Even if British TT-120 "takes off" it will be many years (if ever) before there will be a big enough range to constitute any kind of challenge to the dominance of OO and N, and many people who have embraced r-t-r O gauge have done so because of declining vision and/or dexterity so aren't likely to be thinking of downsizing. . 

 

The launches of Airfix/GMR/Mainline back in the late seventies were the precise opposite of what Peco seem to be attempting; new products that worked on track and layouts we UK modellers already had. I don't even remember any model shop I used selling their track though there might have been a couple of starter sets that included it. 

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

46 minutes ago, luke_stevens said:

 Going back to the video Peco say the track is the NEM standards (Normen europäischer Modelleisenbahnen) and the medium point is "coincidently" similar to but not a B6 point.

 

"3:04: produced to nem standards and featuring" and "3:47 coincidentally this turnout is very close to the BR B6" - so it is NOT a British design of point.

 

We'll have to wait to see what it actually is like when the track arrives but it sounds as if it is aligned to the European market.

 

Luke 

I didn't expect anything else, did you? The mere mention of NEM standards should be the giveaway.

 

It's only recently that Peco has begun offering OO users track that isn't relabelled continental pattern HO. For over half a century, Streamline FB in "OO" has been selling to a huge customer base who either aren't put off by that or wouldn't spot the differences in the first place. Most people are really not interested in modelling track. So long as it has rails and sleepers that look roughly like the real thing, ease of use and reliability are what matters. 

 

Peco aren't going to ignore the only market that currently exists for TT-120 on the off-chance that enough people will adopt a completely new British outline scale/gauge combination for that alone to make producing the track viable.

 

John

Edited June 12, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[bradfordbuffer]

32 minutes ago, Robert Shrives said:

Indeed a brilliant layout until my cat wrecked it. Sad to report it is now just a set of bare boards, the buildings survived for a while but age took hold of the plasticard so now only most of the loco shed remains. The station building disappeared while on display at Minffordd after a gala so hopefully the owner still enjoys it.  

Looking forward to the new track and how it will help all 12mm track users - fiddle yards for some, main tracks for others  in the3mm world and then in the 1:120 world new layouts suited to the smaller home. 

Well that will teach you to use cat litter as ballast 🙈

[Ravenser]

49 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

I don't really think it will. Plenty of people model in more than one scale.

 

Even if British TT-120 "takes off" it will be many years (if ever) before there will be a big enough range to constitute any kind of challenge to the dominance of OO and N, and many people who have embraced r-t-r O gauge have done so because of declining vision and/or dexterity so aren't likely to be thinking of downsizing. . 

 

The launches of Airfix/GMR/Mainline back in the late seventies were the precise opposite of what Peco seem to be attempting; new products that worked on track and layouts we UK modellers already had. I don't even remember any model shop I used selling their track though there might have been a couple of starter sets that included it. 

 

John

 

We perhaps need to be realistic about what is possible

 

There is no way TT-120 will displace N. That battle was fought in the 1960s, when TT had a stronger position - and N rapidly swept TT into total commercial oblivion in every market in the free world

 

TT survived behind the Iron Curtain because it was already the designated smaller scale for model railways. Communism didn't do product competition - why produce N when we already have TT? So TT stayed in the 5 Year Plan , because the factory existed in the DDR. N gauge never happened.

 

Come 1990 and the Western RTR model railway manufacturers found a significant and resourceful TT user base who were committed to the scale and not interested in changing scale and switching to expensive box-opening

 

This will only ever be a niche scale, inhabited by people who want to do something a bit different. You will never get near the level of trade support enjoyed by N - never mind OO. That means TT-120 will have to be a more craft-based scale, using kits to fill out a limited range of RTR. Continental TT seems to have a more craft and cottage industry based culture than Continental HO and N

 

What has changed is that new technologies like 3D printing, laser cut , and downloadable files for printing at home make short-run products much more viable

 

This venture will attrct people who want to be different, do something novel, and are willing to make stuff . New scales usually do.

 

The one edge it may have is that it should be significantly easier to make stuff at home than it is in N

 

 

[whart57]

An American embargo on selling new rare earth magnets to the Soviet bloc had something to do with it as well 

[Golden Fleece 30]

8 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

That battle was fought in the 1960s, when TT had a stronger position - and N rapidly swept TT into total commercial oblivion in every market in the free world

Not quite, Tri-ang had ceased TT production a few years before Farish started N. 

[Grovenor]

Yes but Lone Star electric was knocked out by Triang TT3, or maybe just died on its own!

Farish was not our first N, or 000 as it was known then.

Edited June 12, 2022 by Grovenor

[Les1952]

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

 

We perhaps need to be realistic about what is possible

 

This will only ever be a niche scale, inhabited by people who want to do something a bit different. You will never get near the level of trade support enjoyed by N - never mind OO. That means TT-120 will have to be a more craft-based scale, using kits to fill out a limited range of RTR. Continental TT seems to have a more craft and cottage industry based culture than Continental HO and N

 

The one edge it may have is that it should be significantly easier to make stuff at home than it is in N

 

 

 

In this country "this will only ever be a niche scale, inhabited by people who want to do something a bit different. You will never get near the level of trade support enjoyed by N - never mind OO. That means TT-120 will have to be a more craft-based scale, using kits to fill out a limited range of RTR. Continental TT seems to have a more craft and cottage industry based culture than Continental HO and N"

 

On the Continent there is a growing number of manufacturers supporting it, including Hornby group and Roco/Fleischmann (two of the three biggest manufacturers, the third being Trix/Marklin) and the "craft & cottage industry culture" could well be a UK based perception based on our limited knowledge of what actually happens in Continental modelling.

 

"The one edge it may have is that it should be significantly easier to make stuff at home than it is in N" - maybe, but you will need a bigger table......

Having said that I find it easier to make things in N than OO.

 

Les

 

Edited June 12, 2022 by Les1952
typos...