new to dcc whats best controller ?

[KingEdwardII]

58 minutes ago, sjrixon said:

my Pi is slow

Which Pi do you have?

 

Yours, Mike.

[sjrixon]

Old PI.....

[KingEdwardII]

Pi 4 / Pi 400 is pretty speedy and has a lot of RAM - with JMRI etc, its more likely that the small amount of RAM is the issue with an older Pi. Power up is also fast, especially if you're booting off a fast flash disk as I do.

 

Yours, Mike.

[faulcon1]

I once heard someone say "there is no best controller or throttle. There is only what's best for you". It really IS an individuals choice. But remember if you buy one to save money later one buy one that you can "grow" with rather than buying one that may suit you now but it may not suit you later on. 

[RedgateModels]

Keep an eye out for November's BRM too 😉

[RedgateModels]

On 24/06/2022 at 17:03, RAF96 said:

The best controller is usually the second one you buy, having wasted money finding out the first one didn’t tick all the boxes.

 

Mine was the third 😂

[TEAMYAKIMA]

Some people on here will know that I have had countless DCC problems. DCC with the brand I was advised to buy has been a nightmare, partly because each brand has its own 'quirks' and no-one I know locally uses the brand I chose.

 

I have had a huge amount of help from one RMwebber in particular, but due to logistic issues that help has always been over the phone/internet and whilst that has been priceless, and I owe that person so much, nothing beats a 'hands on' help.

 

My advice is to join a local club and seek advice from one of their DCC experts and then buy whatever they use (assuming you have had the chance to give their chosen system a prolonged test). Therefore, if/when you get problems they will know exactly how to give you 'hands on' advice.

Edited August 25, 2022 by TEAMYAKIMA

[Andymsa]

1 hour ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

Some people on here will know that I have had countless DCC problems. DCC with the brand I was advised to buy has been a nightmare, partly because each brand has its own 'quirks' and no-one I know locally uses the brand I chose.

 

I have had a huge amount of help from one RMwebber in particular, but due to logistic issues that help has always been over the phone/internet and whilst that has been priceless, and I owe that person so much, nothing beats a 'hands on' help.

 

My advice is to join a local club and seek advice from one of their DCC experts and then buy whatever they use (assuming you have had the chance to give their chosen system a prolonged test). Therefore, if/when you get problems they will know exactly how to give you 'hands on' advice.

as you say all systems have there good a bad points, but to chose a system based on what others are using around you is not good logic. What I would do is go to someone like Digitrains or similar that have test systems to try, see what your comfy with and how easy it is to understand, join specific forums on the system your thinking of going with to see what others find easy or hard and problems encountered. Most DCC problems encountered are due to lack of understanding and poor installation of the system.

[RobinofLoxley]

I read every existing thread on here (The DCC section) from beginning to end, that was about 2 years ago, to understand all the pros and cons. Its still a learning process but I havnt regretted anything so far

[TEAMYAKIMA]

23 minutes ago, Andymsa said:

as you say all systems have there good a bad points, but to chose a system based on what others are using around you is not good logic. What I would do is go to someone like Digitrains or similar that have test systems to try, see what your comfy with and how easy it is to understand, join specific forums on the system your thinking of going with to see what others find easy or hard and problems encountered. Most DCC problems encountered are due to lack of understanding and poor installation of the system.

 

I don't disagree with you to a very great extent and perhaps I wasn't clear enough (as usual) - my advice to buy whatever 'they ' use was on the assumption that you liked whatever they used after giving it a prolonged test.

 

This was my personal experience.

 

I bought brand X on advice of a close friend who was a brand X fanatic, I had assumed that my friend would always be around if I needed help - but for medical reasons he hasn't been.

 

Since buying spending £1000+ on the system (not including decoders)  I have had to ask for help on so many occasions from other people as I have had so many problems with brand X and its quirks. I have personally met many, many DCC users and the all say the same thing, 'Oh, yes. I have been using DCC for years I can help you - Oh! You use brand X, I am very experienced in DCC, but not brand X. Sorry can't help you.'

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by TEAMYAKIMA

[Pete the Elaner]

1 hour ago, Andymsa said:

as you say all systems have there good a bad points, but to chose a system based on what others are using around you is not good logic. What I would do is go to someone like Digitrains or similar that have test systems to try, see what your comfy with and how easy it is to understand, join specific forums on the system your thinking of going with to see what others find easy or hard and problems encountered. Most DCC problems encountered are due to lack of understanding and poor installation of the system.

 

I don't think you've realised but you've argued against yourself there.

You stated that that most DCC problems are due to a lack of understanding & poor installation. I agree with that. Being part of a club is often largely about sharing information, skills & knowledge. An online forum can be useful but sometimes it is hard to even know the right question to ask.

 

Someone at my local club would have help available for Powercab issues because several members already have one. This gives it a massive advantage over a system which may well be better, but also different. Most people don't want a different system then spend ages learning how to use it.

[WIMorrison]

I think it is about time that posts asking 'what is the best DCC Controller' are banned from the forum as there is no such thing as a 'best' controller. There is one that suits the requirements now (which are generally unspecified), and one that suits the future requirements, but they all operate DCC layouts and are all the best for someone, somewhere.

[jamesed]

27 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

I think it is about time that posts asking 'what is the best DCC Controller' are banned from the forum as there is no such thing as a 'best' controller. 

 

I agree with you there!

 

In the meantime, I'm intrigued to know from @TEAMYAKIMA what this so called "brand x" controller is that costs £1,000+ and is so complicated that even experienced dcc modelers can't figure out how it works. That presumably also includes everyone on here who apparently haven't been able to help either. 

 

All I can add to this is that I'm very happy that in choosing a Z21 control system, I have the best control system for me. I've not had to rely upon anyone else to show me how it works and it does everything I need it to most efficiently and in a way that suits me. That's all that matters and it will see me through anything I may wish to do in the future (and it didn't cost £1,000).  I'm sure that many others on here are likewise suitably happy that they own the best system for them, whatever that system is.

 

It would actually be more helpful to hear from people who aren't happy with their control systems and to understand why, or to hear from people who would choose something different if starting out again. Those sort of experiences are much more likely to be valuable to new dcc modelers. Don't ask "what's best?"  ask "what's worst?".

 

 

[WIMorrison]

It ain’t hard to find out what Brand X is, the posts are littered all over this forum 😉

[spamcan61]

58 minutes ago, jamesed said:

In the meantime, I'm intrigued to know from @TEAMYAKIMA what this so called "brand x" controller is that costs £1,000+

They didn't state 'controller' they stated 'system' which can be a whole different proposition.

 

58 minutes ago, jamesed said:

It would actually be more helpful to hear from people who aren't happy with their control systems and to understand why, or to hear from people who would choose something different if starting out again. Those sort of experiences are much more likely to be valuable to new dcc modelers. Don't ask "what's best?"  ask "what's worst?".

Agree completely, I apply this logic to cars, cameras, just about anything. 

Edited August 25, 2022 by spamcan61

[D9020 Nimbus]

I have experience of the following three systems:

 

• Gaugemaster Prodigy Express
• Hornby Elite
• Roco Multimaus — as supplied with starter sets pre-z21. (I have a z21 Start as well but haven’t yet used it.)

Some comments:

 

Prodigy Express — mine was purchased some time ago. Didn't give access to the full range of functions then, but I believe the current version does. Little protection against momentary shorts; the controller shuts down and has to be switched off at the mains and then on again. Straightforward to set a long address, but note that this sets CV29 in such a manner as to turn off DC operation. Rotary knob, clearly displays current speed step.

 

The main problem is that it does not allow you to set which functions are triggered and which latched. It uses the NMRA standard in this respect — it is a rebadged MRC unit. This made it unusable with some European sound-fitted locos, (Trix/Minitrix) where the sound is triggered by F2. That, together with its sensitivity to shorts and the need to switch off and on at the mains each time, caused me to look for a replacement.

 

Hornby Elite — works well enough, but I didn't like the feel. Control is by way of a knob (there are two, so two trains can be controlled at once). You can set long addresses, but the procedure is long-winded. The main problem is the knobs — you can turn them infinitely in either direction but the speed step isn’t displayed — there is a kind of graphic indication but it is too coarse. This makes control difficult — it's impossible to know when you've turned the knob enough to stop a loco. All functions are treated as latches — one press turns on, another off. I think mine covers functions up to 20; some models now have 28.

 

Both of the above can read CVs as well as write them.

 

Roco Multimaus — hand-held controller (as is the Gaugemaster but not the Hornby). Maintains an on-controller database of locos, which can be identified by a 5-character string. Easy to set a short address, more complex to set a long one — you have to set CV29 yourself, and you can’t read CVs (at least with the starter set set-up). Centre-off knob. Unlike the other two, there is no separate programming track output, so effectively the whole layout is treated as a programming track. Sooner or later, you will probably reprogram more locos than you intend to — I did once, fortunately just to one other loco which I was able to reprogram back again. The cable from the unit to the track has a special plug; it used to be possible to purchase additional cables, but this no longer appears to be the case.

 

The instruction manuals for a number of DCC controllers can be downloaded from the internet. Might be worth a look.

[WIMorrison]

2 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

Roco Multimaus — hand-held controller (as is the Gaugemaster but not the Hornby). Maintains an on-controller database of locos, which can be identified by a 5-character string. Easy to set a short address, more complex to set a long one — you have to set CV29 yourself, and you can’t read CVs (at least with the starter set set-up). Centre-off knob. Unlike the other two, there is no separate programming track output, so effectively the whole layout is treated as a programming track. Sooner or later, you will probably reprogram more locos than you intend to — I did once, fortunately just to one other loco which I was able to reprogram back again. The cable from the unit to the track has a special plug; it used to be possible to purchase additional cables, but this no longer appears to be the case.

 

The Multimaus is actually just the handset. The Roco Multimaus set comprises the Multimaus handset, a digital amplifier (the controller) and a power supply.

 

The Multimaus handset can be plugged directly into the z21 and used with it. The z21 doesn't have a separate programming track whereas the Z21 does, however both the z21 and Z21 will automatically set long addresses. When using a controller that doesn't have a separate programming track (there are many systems like this), you use a DPDT switch to create a separate track for programming - this is actually all that is done by the controllers that have separate programming tracks, just that they switch a relay internally.

[D9020 Nimbus]

Yes, my set-up was acquired from a Fleischmann starter set (as was the z21 Start). These are generally very good value, provided the items in the set are of interest, as they were in my case.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

1 hour ago, jamesed said:

In the meantime, I'm intrigued to know from @TEAMYAKIMA what this so called "brand x" controller is that costs £1,000+ and is so complicated that even experienced dcc modelers can't figure out how it works. That presumably also includes everyone on here who apparently haven't been able to help either.

 

As someone has already stated the £1000+ was for the system not a controller. TBH I don't want to get into a discussion about brand 'x' - that's why I called it that in the first place - because it will just provoke discussions/arguments about the pro's and cons of the brand. All I will say is that I am very grateful to the RMwebber who helped me with the route selection issues I had (he knows who he is) and also to a long time member of my club who is a member of MERG and does know about DCC and who is learning about brand 'x' and providing me with a truly amazing amount of 'hands-on' help.

Edited August 25, 2022 by TEAMYAKIMA

[Jeff Smith]

On 24/06/2022 at 04:25, jezek said:

its not a large layout about 3ft in width and about 6-7 ft long 

 

the 009 is a quarry scene and then a single passenger line of about 3ft with passing loop

 

OO is a loop with a passing points a yard and a small loco shed .

 

the locos ive ordered/got are dcc with sound 

 

track work is peco and points are going to be set manually ..not using dcc

 

as i say im new to this

 

 

 

As it sounds like you have already made the decision to use DCC with sound although your layout(s) are quite small.  Without the sound DC would probably have been fine.....

 

You haven't mentioned budget - it may not be a factor but worth keeping an eye on Amazon.  I had an On30 layout using a Digitrax Zephyr starter system.  The system was sold with the layout but I still had some DCC stock.  An MRC Prodigy Express turned up for US$130 - just too good to miss......

Incidentally some DCC chips are dual function and will run on DC for continuity track testing.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Jeff Smith
Added info

[Andymsa]

5 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

I don't think you've realised but you've argued against yourself there.

You stated that that most DCC problems are due to a lack of understanding & poor installation. I agree with that. Being part of a club is often largely about sharing information, skills & knowledge. An online forum can be useful but sometimes it is hard to even know the right question to ask.

 

Someone at my local club would have help available for Powercab issues because several members already have one. This gives it a massive advantage over a system which may well be better, but also different. Most people don't want a different system then spend ages learning how to use it.

Maybe DCC systems should be sold with a government health warning and should have proof of age requirements before purchase. 😁 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Andymsa

[Pete the Elaner]

3 hours ago, Andymsa said:

Maybe DCC systems should be sold with a government health warning and should have proof of age requirements before purchase. 😁 

 

It is a very open question, almost like which car is best?

If you want to get from A to B across loads of roundabouts carrying a snooker cue, then a Lotus Elan (hence my forum name) would be ideal. But carry a couple of passengers on a 250 mile journey for the least cost, then a diesel Fiesta may be better...unless your passengers are tall in which case you may want something bigger. 😆

[faulcon1]

A long time ago DCC Concepts went out on a limb and did a run down on DCC systems. For them there was no alternative in their eyes but going to a model shop and actually trying out various DCC systems for yourself. It's like buying a car if the car you want to buy is in the same country you live in. You go and have a look and take it for a test drive and it's the same for DCC systems. Think of the sort of things you'll want to do on your layout and then try to do that on the DCC system you may like to buy. Things like consisting or having multiple locos on one train. Is it easy to set up and delete the locos so that they can be controlled independently once again. Do you need to constantly look at the DCC throttle when controlling a train or is it easy to do by simply feeling the buttons or knobs on the throttle without having to look at the throttle. Do you get a full DCC system with all the functions built in or is it necessary to buy add ons to get a fully functioning DCC system.

For DCC Concepts the NCE Powercab fitted the bill as it was a full DCC system in a throttle. The NCE Pro Cab is the same but with 5 amp not 2.5 amp of the Powercab. There is also the Pro Cab 10 which is 10 amps designed for gauges O, 1 and larger.

They weren't complimentary of either Hornby Select or Elite with basically return to the manufacturer for a full refund and the other British one that came out in the early days of DCC the name of which escapes me. It was released with great fanfare and in next to no time fizzled out completely. DCC Concepts didn't like Digitrax Super Chief throttles because all the buttons were the same shape and size meaning you had to constantly look at the throttle to control the trains. They also didn't like the owners manual from Digitrax which contained a lot of "tech speak" whereas the NCE owners manual doesn't. Even if you hard wire a decoder the wrong way and in forward the loco goes backwards. Instead of rewiring the decoder you go to the direction bit and it says "forward press 1 backwards press enter". So you press enter and now when you press forward the loco goes forward and the decoder remembers the new setting.  

NCE started out making components for other manufacturers before launching a DCC system of their own. So they'd been in DCC business for sometime. I will however stress that the "momentum" button on NCE DCC throttles can only be used with NCE brand decoders and no one else's. If you have Loksound decoders fitted to locos and you press the "momentum" is plays havoc with Loksound decoders. It won't stuff the decoder but it will necessitate putting the loco on a programming track and reprogramming all the CV values which can only be done by contacting whoever programmed the decoder originally with values from CV 1 to CV 255 a very long job. I glued a little hard plastic cap over the "momentum" button so I don't accidentally press it. DCC caters for all tastes from complete novices to absolute tech heads and therefore your layout can be as simple DCC wise or as complicated as you want it to be.    

[RobinofLoxley]

Anyone who comes on asking the question 'Which is the best' is probably off track anyway. We are in an age where instead of investigating things for yourself, perhaps devoting a lot of time to it, the internet does it for you. It can make you very lazy. However in a really specialist area that doesnt work; you have to get your hands dirty so to speak.

[WIMorrison]

1 hour ago, faulcon1 said:

A long time ago DCC Concepts went out on a limb and did a run down on DCC systems...

 

And of course it was just coincidence that the review ended up recommending the system that they sold, whilst finding fault with the other systems.