Through Coaches, what happened when trains ran late?

[johnofwessex]

Through coaches used to be a feature of railways in the UK.

 

But what happened when either the train they were hatched to, or the one they were going to be added to ran late?

 

 

[bécasse]

There were long and detailed "délai d'attente" instructions for each through carriage working that detailed how long trains would wait when late running occurred and what alternative arrangements would be put in place if necessary to get the carriages to their destination.

[Michael Hodgson]

If delay was marginal, connecting train would be held.  For through coaches due to be attached to a more important train, the through coach would be timteabled to arrive with a reasonable margin to ensure connection. 

 

If delay was too great to hold train, unless another convenient train happened to be about (not usually the case), a spare engine was summoned and they got run as specials.  Labour was cheap and there were engines sitting around in steam.  Long distance train might be said to be "running in two parts" - the first train running to time, with the second following a bit later, fitted in as best as possible, with signalboxes along the line being warned by telephone of the extra, this would be particularly important if the route included single line sections.  The same could happen if there were too many passengers for a particular train - a spare set, loco and crew would be found.

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, johnofwessex said:

Through coaches used to be a feature of railways in the UK.

 

But what happened when either the train they were hatched to, or the one they were going to be added to ran late?

 

 

Nothings changed to the current thing where passengers just change trains. If it's a few minutes, the operator may chose to hold a service back from departure, or the passenger gets left behind!

[The Johnster]

The ‘onward’ train to which the through coach is to be attached has a similar status to a ‘booked connection’.  The stationmaster at the connecting station has the authority to hold connecting onward services, and will do so particularly if the connection is the last service of the day, but also has the authority to run relief services or provide taxis. 
 

An example of this during my railway career in the 70s, booked connection rather than through coach, was a Sunday evening Crewe-Cardiff dmu (120) that I worked from Hereford, booked connection to last Paddington-Swansea.  It was occasionally very late having been held at Crewe for delayed up WCML connections that had been diverted over the S&C and further delayed by overrunning occupations.  
 

I went through the train canvassing passengers intending to travel downline from Cardiff; there were a dozen or so, and requested the staff at Abergavenny to inform SM Cardiff Central, who dispatched the Swansea and arranged a Canton dmu for a late run to Swansea to connect with my train.  Seemed like the right thing to do. 

[Clive Mortimore]

5 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

If delay was marginal, connecting train would be held.  For through coaches due to be attached to a more important train, the through coach would be timteabled to arrive with a reasonable margin to ensure connection. 

 

If delay was too great to hold train, unless another convenient train happened to be about (not usually the case), a spare engine was summoned and they got run as specials.  Labour was cheap and there were engines sitting around in steam.  Long distance train might be said to be "running in two parts" - the first train running to time, with the second following a bit later, fitted in as best as possible, with signalboxes along the line being warned by telephone of the extra, this would be particularly important if the route included single line sections.  The same could happen if there were too many passengers for a particular train - a spare set, loco and crew would be found.

I can remember trainspotting on a Saturday at Bedford Midland Road (late 60s early 70s) when the passengers were asked not to board the London train but allow people to alight as there would be a second train following. This might be a loco hauled train from Leicester running one or two block post behind the main train or a DMU would appear from the carriage sidings as soon as the platform was clear of the main train.

[Morello Cherry]

There is the scene in Night Mail at Crewe where the train from Holyhead is late. (It sticks in my memory because the person shouting 'Where's that Holyhead?' sounds like my grandfather did.)

 

But my question is how long would the postal be held for a connection such as the train from Holyhead and what would have happened to mail if the connection was missed since I'm assuming mail from Holyhead and Ireland would be quite high priority.

[Compound2632]

Now, I can't recall where I read this - many years ago - possibly in John Thomas' David & Charles book on the North British, so a general health / pinch of salt warning.

 

Back in the late 19th century, before the rebuilding of Edinburgh Waverley station, the North British's timekeeping was shocking. That of the Midland, taking many North British passengers on into England, wasn't much better. The general knock-on effect by way of through carriage workings and booked connections was that a five minute's delay of a connecting train into Waverley in the early morning would result in a three hours' delay to the last train on some west country branch line. Rather reminiscent of the butterfly and rainstorm explanation of chaos theory.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Compound2632
sp.

[The Stationmaster]

42 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

There is the scene in Night Mail at Crewe where the train from Holyhead is late. (It sticks in my memory because the person shouting 'Where's that Holyhead?' sounds like my grandfather did.)

 

But my question is how long would the postal be held for a connection such as the train from Holyhead and what would have happened to mail if the connection was missed since I'm assuming mail from Holyhead and Ireland would be quite high priority.

Mail Trains were in a very different category from everything else.  If they were in the Post Office Letter Mail contract as Post Office Controlled Trains they could only be held with Post Office permission and the Post Office would normally set how long they could be held an d that in turn depended on connections further along a train's route or on opportinities to make up time.

 

On most railways in Britain at most times there would be a connectional policy in place which governed how long a train might be held for a late running connection (if it could be held at all).  For a contenmporary example there was a public poster at the junction for our local branch line a few years back which showed certain specific connections which would be maintained if the connecting train was no more than X minutes late. No other trains on the branch would be held!  *because they had short turn-rounds at the terminus.

 

Having had to write various connectional policies and instructions over the years some of it is quite logical (last trains being a particular case in point which are usually held) but there is a wide variety of factors to take into account and all of them have to be carefully weighed up against punctuality targets

[Morello Cherry]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Now, I can't recall where I read this - many years ago - possibly in John Thomas' David & Charles book on the North British, so a general health / pinch of salt warning.

 

Back in the late 19th century, before the rebuilding of Edinburgh Waverley station, the North British's timekeeping was shocking. That of the Midland, taking many North British passengers on into England, wasn't much better. The general knock-on effect by way of through carriage workings and booked connections was that a five minute's delay of a connecting train into Waverley in the early morning would result in a three hours' delay to the last train on some west country branch line. Rather reminiscent of the butterfly and rainstorm explanation of chaos theory.

 

There was an article in Modern Railways a few years back that was an anatomy of a signal check somewhere on the south of the wcml early in the morning. It showed that it had knock on effects because of missed paths etc and delays stemming from that, which went from Inverness to penzance to Felixstowe and it finally worked itself out of the system around 11.30 at night.

[The Johnster]

The postal contract included vicious penalties payable by whichever party was responsible for the delay, most often the railway but sometimes the post office was at fault.  
 

There were mail delays caused by overcarrying of bags, usually the result of the failure of the postal staff to clear heavy traffic from a van before departure time and the railway getting the train away on time.  The bags of course had to be sent back asap.  

[Morello Cherry]

13 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Mail Trains were in a very different category from everything else.  If they were in the Post Office Letter Mail contract as Post Office Controlled Trains they could only be held with Post Office permission and the Post Office would normally set how long they could be held an d that in turn depended on connections further along a train's route or on opportinities to make up time.

 

On most railways in Britain at most times there would be a connectional policy in place which governed how long a train might be held for a late running connection (if it could be held at all).  For a contenmporary example there was a public poster at the junction for our local branch line a few years back which showed certain specific connections which would be maintained if the connecting train was no more than X minutes late. No other trains on the branch would be held!  *because they had short turn-rounds at the terminus.

 

Having had to write various connectional policies and instructions over the years some of it is quite logical (last trains being a particular case in point which are usually held) but there is a wide variety of factors to take into account and all of them have to be carefully weighed up against punctuality targets

 

Having reminded myself I went back and found Night Mail on the net to rewatch the Crewe section again. It captures this well. It is the Post Office who ask for it to be held for 4 minutes and then control agree - and hold it for the Holyhead.

[Hal Nail]

I was on a late running train heading towards Exeter last year and we were going to be tight for the hourly Barnstaple service.

 

The kindly guard phoned from somewhere on Dainton and told them there were 20 odd poeple asking (winking at me as she did so). She told me where to be for the bridge and I raced over. We then waited a good 5-10 mins as a steady stream of people dawdled over and it was probably well over 20 in the end!

[Phil Bullock]

IIRC in the early 60s the through coaches to Plymouth off a Glasgow train at Crewe being very late was what led to a Duchess being sent down the Marches to Bristol via Newport with them…. Bet some other interesting workings resulted too