Brighton Trafalgar - An Edwardian LB&SCR Terminus

[Edwardian]

Don't fret, pain and injury is how children learn. 

[Compound2632]

23 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Make sure there’s a lock on that bureau, before the baby becomes a toddler…

 

I went around taking the knobs off various low-lying cupboards and drawers. Trouble is, I've not been able to find where I put them.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Compound2632

[ChrisN]

Once they start moving, you will be surprised how far and how fast they can go.  Once they can walk...........

[Edwardian]

23 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

Once they start moving, you will be surprised how far and how fast they can go.  Once they can walk...........

 

Dogs are good for hunting them down.

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

 

Dogs are good for hunting them down.

Or vice versa!

 

Jim

[Dana Ashdown]

On 08/07/2022 at 03:58, Lacathedrale said:

There is a lock on the bureau and all the drawers, but can I find the bloody key??

Learn to pick locks. Then no lock will be a bother to you.😏

[Regularity]

On 08/07/2022 at 08:58, Lacathedrale said:

There is a lock on the bureau and all the drawers, but can I find the bloody key??

Since the lock is just to stop casual nosiness rather than determined theft, you might be able to undo a couple of screws, remove it, and fit a replacement, to guarantee finding the key!

[Lacathedrale]

The drawers also lock, so that'd be four replacement locks - probably worth using the bureau for firewood and buying a new one with how much that'd cost!

[Regularity]

It might be a standard pattern key.

[Lacathedrale]

While reading the Brighton to Coulsdon North: A Signalling Perspective book for hints on how to signal this layout, I idly glanced over the diagrams for Brighton, and I found this cheeky little snippet of P8, 9 and 10 - and the headshunt into the Loco works. Flipped 180 degrees, it looks a bit familiar doesn't it? 

 

 

Funnily enough, those platforms would have been primarily for the use of the East Coastway, which is the exact premise for which Brighton Victoria as a standalone station was propositioned as. Maybe it's a bit like the old Waterloo station before rebuilding with disparate and disconnected concourses/etc. ? I believe the above diagram dates from the installation of colour light signalling so much of the signalling complexity is removed (!), but there were three boxes with lots of slotting and interlocking going on so I'm fairly happy with the idea of 'my' box handing over routing to the Coastway or BML to the North/Montpelier Jct box.

 

The bottom siding in the above photograph is roughly where my carriage sidings are - in this diagram it's the headshunt into the Loco works - which was small enough to fit two locos and that's all.  Here's a lovely atmospheric shot (at a much later date), maybe some inspiration for the 'loco ready siding' at the rear of the layout?

 

[Lacathedrale]

Underlay?

The station layout is (obviously) mostly flat, with the exception of the retaining wall and embankment behind it, but I think it would be nice to get a little undulation on the ground level. I'm wondering if it makes sense to use WS underlay (presuably with copydex, as seems to be the vogue at the moment?) rather than pinning straight to the baseboards? Alternatively, some thick cork sheeting (~6mm?). Any suggestions gladly taken.

 

Wiring, Signalling

I have been in deep conversation with @Regularity over email about the signalling and power routing for this layout, very heavily inspired by past conversations with @t-b-g and Buckingham GCR in general.

 

I fully acknowledge that DCC would make this all very trivial, but (at the moment) I am finding it hard to feel anything but mild distaste at it.  This may vary when the rubber hits the road.

 

(Simon has put together a very interested proposal on using turnouts to route power but I have evidently been exposed to too much leaded petrol and I'm finding it hard to grasp yet. He's helping me a huge amount and I'm sure in due course it will become clear)

 

In the interim the essential premise of this first version is thus:

1. Block sections are dead by default 
2. Point levers/switches just move the blades
3. Signal levers energise relevant block sections to the relevant controller
4. The relevant controller is the block ahead

 

So, for example if a train is sitting at Platform 1 and is ready to depart, the Station operator will pull the relevant levers to set the turnouts and then the platform starter. This last movement will energise the platform road, the route through the throat, and the up main - to the FY operator, who can drive the train back into the traverser. Each lever will energise different sections.

 

I have shamelessly re-used Simon's drawing below, overlaid with my thought on the block sections (coloured strips), hopefully he can find it in his heart to forgive me:

 

 

Legend

On the approach/departure lines:

• I - Distant (for illustration only)
• J - Outer Home (used by Station Operator)
• W - Advanced Starter, FY Distant (latter for illustration only)

On the gantry:

• KLM (Platform 1,2,3 Homes)
• NOP (Platform 1,2,3 Calling-On)
• Q (Loop/Siding Shunt)
• F1-5 (Shunt signal from Up Main, it is a single shunt signal, but is used in conjunction with a rotary dial to indicate which of Loco, P1,P2,P3,Loop is to be energised

On the platforms, loops and sidings:

• XYZ (Platform 1,2,3 Starters)
• RST (Platform 1,2,3 Shunt signals)
• U (Loop yellow shunt signal)
• V (Carriage siding shunt signal)
• % (King lever for the loop ground frame)

 

In addition to the above, there are momentary contact switches to energise the whole of a given platform to bypass the signal control to allow the station operator to directly energise the full length of the platform (only), to allow a train locomotive to move to the end under the signals.

 

How it actually works (Inspired by @Regularity as he used a narrative method to describe the operating pattern quite effectively)

• Train arrival to P3 - Station operator pulls off C, D, M  and J which energises the pink, dark purple, aqua and dark aqua sections to the their controller and they can drive the train from the FY onto the layout. When complete, the signals are returned to normal.
• Pilot loco couples to inbound stock - Assuming the pilot is on the pocket, the station operator pulls off G and F, H which energises the loco spur and dark & light blue section. These are returned to normal. The operator then pulls B, F and sets the shunt signal rotary to F4 and pulls it off. This energises the dark & light blue section, the purple section and only the light aqua section (the end of the platform holding the train loco is still isolated). When this move is complete, signals are restored.
• Pilot loco uses up main to shunt to carriage sidings - Operator pulls off B, F and then shunt signal T. (Note: This results in the same sections being energised to the same controller - If this was a train departure, instead of T the operator would have used Z and the control would be routed to the FY controller). The pilot is now on the up main. The operator pulls off C, D, and F5 and can shunt into the carriage sidings before restoring the signals. At some point while the pilot was doing this move, a momentary contact button can be depressed so the train engine can come to rest at the starting signal.
• Train loco departs P3 for service away from the station - Operator pulls off B, F, Z, and W - this energises the same sections as the shunt move earlier, but past the Advanced Starter into the FY, and control is granted to the FY operator controller to take the train engine away for servicing. 

Some further notes

The king lever for the ground frame may not be prototypical, but essentially forms a combined signal and crossover lever which energises the end of P3 and the loop/siding block to the station controller.

I think the turntable road may require a red shunt signal also?

I will be using [black, -ve, rear] as common wiring, and since I am using unifrog points this will mean insulating all the [red, +ve, front] rail joins between sections.

 

Questions

I could write code which would do this fairly easily, but that logic in electronics is currently beyond me. I have glanced through the Bodmin articles in MRC and I get a broad idea, but I'm not yet sure how to translate the matrix that is required to determine the behaviour of each lever (i.e. Lever 1 routes power to section blue/green/red to the station controller, Lever 2 routes power to section orange/green/red to the FY controller) into an electrical schematic.... any ideas? :)

Edited July 17, 2022 by Lacathedrale

[Regularity]

22 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

hopefully he can find it in his heart to forgive me

No forgiveness required: it was just a suggestion to get you thinking, which you are doing.

 

There are several conceptual ways to wire a layout: it is wise to consider as many as possible because ultimately, it has to work for you, and no one else.

 

Here are some of those ideas:

1) Traditional approach with many sections and isolators. Advantages: well documented method, signals can come later. Disadvantages: lots of switches and signalling is largely divorced from everything else (although a degree of only allowing electrically operated signals  to be reversed if the route/sections are correctly set can be incorporated);

2) DCC: run two busbars down the layout for near and far rails, with frog juicers powering each vee. Advantages: easy to wire, signals can come later, separates function of signalling from driving (as per the prototype, you can drive against the signals). Disadvantages: it’s DCC, which isn’t for everyone. (And no, you don’t have to fit sound and lights to everything. With simple decoders, the cost isn’t that high.).

3) Use the signals to link sections to a minimal number of locally powered sections, using reversed linked section control. Advantages: power is routed via signals and pointwork, and if there is an interlocked lever frame, this is a good way to provide foolproof operation. Disadvantages: it requires a number of multipole switches from day one, which can be fired as relays from a bank of switches as an interim control panel, or mechanical point and signal operation is installed along with microswitches; the wiring is a little more complicated at first.

4) Battery powered radio control. Advantages: no wiring of layout required at all. Disadvantages: slightly more involved wiring of locos, getting a cell/battery and required circuitry into small locos below 7mm scale is somewhat of a challenge. Locos need regular charging.

5) Set up a computer/logic system using ICs and/or relays. Advantages: pulling the levers sorts out the power, etc, as per option 3. Disadvantages: complexity.

 

From my point of view, option 1 is the worst (and I stopped doing it this way in my early teens), 2 and 4 are my personal favourites, but in DC mode, I would go for option 3: a combination of Buckingham, Lewis Carrol, and Stewart Hines’ suggestions in MR November 1979, in an article entitled “Complexity for Simplicity’s Sake”, or similar.

[phil_sutters]

Just in case you need any Brighton station architectural details, I have just reinstated my Brighton stations album - 

I appreciate that the snaps will not help with your Edwardian signals.

For a more compact station there is Eastbourne - 

and for a more complicated one there is Lewes - 

 

Edited July 17, 2022 by phil_sutters

[Regularity]

In case anyone is interested, these are the diagrams I originally produced.

William is using common-return wiring, which simplifies the wiring a bit.

The basic idea is that the local “Brighton Victoria” operator has a 4-position rotary switch, selecting “Off”, “Up main”, “Down main” or “Turntable road” (my designation). Pulling J transfers the fiddle yard to the down main, allowing BV to drive trains in, and W transfers the down main to the fiddle yard, the latter position driving the train out. “Turntable road” (or horse dock road, or whatever) is used for local shunts only. Everything else is selected via the turnouts, but power feeds to P1 (etc) are switched by the signals: K feeds both the platform and the loco isolator, N only the platform, and F1 (five different levers for the one signal, according to route!) feeds only the platform road, and so on across the routes. To get locos out, Each platform end has a push and hold to make switch, so that locos can be driven up to the platform starter. Main arms provide power to the Up main, subsidiary signals to the Down Main. Etc. 

 

The only extra would be the ability (another push and hold to make) feed to the main part of the platform, to allow BV to have a loco move away from the stops to the end of the platform. Looks good, is authentic, but maybe too much?

 

The loco release on Platform 3 connects to the platform road (via an isolator) or to the loop, depending on the position of the crossover.

 

In practice, without interlocking, setting the turnouts provides power up to but including the platforms: the correct signal is required for that, otherwise the loco will come to a sudden stop. Signals and interlocking (if desired) do not have to be installed from the get ho, but the switches or levers do need installing at the start. (Spaces can be left for later installation of signal switches, if do required.) 

 

If including the facing point locks (for verisimilitude of operation if interlocking installed), then at least 36 levers are indicated as required for this “simple” terminus!

[Lacathedrale]

It's all becoming a bit more clear - if I understand,  you are suggesting the frog polarity is changed and simultaneously the adjoining track on the selected route becomes electrically bonded to this toe of this turnout, both using a single DPDT?  It's starting to make sense in my head but I'm still having trouble how it would work in practise. I have illustrated a crossover with feeds on the right hand side:

 

Turnout B is set to the straight route. The frog is set appropriately, and the adjoining straight track is connected to the toe of the turnout. Feed next to B is set to active and so, the route across the 'down main' OK. The diverging route leads to a turnout that is not powered at all, nor is the intermediate track section:

 

With the crossover active, the intermediate section is now bonded to the toe of B (which is energised due to the feed)

 

With A switched, the connection between the toe and heel is created and powers the turnout. The block afterward is a platform, and its power is connected via a signal instead.

 

Can the FY assert control of the entire up feed when W is pulled off? It would mean the FY could drive the trains all the way from platform to traverser. I still think I would want a rotary switch for use in conjunction with F, rather than 5 separate levers - but would happily include FPL with interlocking at a later date.

 

I'm exploring the system and trying to find any potential drawbacks - I'm not sure I see any?  Why would you use relays/ICs when this option appears to be much simpler? Surely there's a drawback somewhere...

Edited July 17, 2022 by Lacathedrale

[Regularity]

You’ve got it. It’s all done to avoid relays, and so that when driving a train into the next section, it is done by the receiver and not the sender, allowing signals to be returned after the train has passed, and for the local controller to resume local work.

[Lacathedrale]

I guess the main limitation is that you need a rotary controller for BV as the first operation of any movement, rather than purely using signals. I would like to figure it out with relays and/or switches too, for completeness - I'll try to reverse engineer the Bodmin/Denny version also. My point re: the advanced starter meaning that the next block's controller asserts control over everything from the platform up to the FY?

Edited July 17, 2022 by Lacathedrale

[Regularity]

You don’t have to have a rotary switch. By pulling any of the home or subsidiary signals on the gantry, power could also be applied to the up main. Similarly, for shunting moves onto the up main, power could be applied to the up main.

The single sub on the gantry for the down main would similarly apply power to the down main, as would the main signals from the platforms, and pulling off the advanced starter would disconnect the down main feed from BV and connect it to the fiddle yard. To make this easier, you would either need two levers each for discs U and V, one for up main and one for down main for each route out, although one disc could serve for exit from loop or carriage siding, depending on the points setting, with a lever for “to up main” and another for “to down main”. Don’t know it is suitable for the LBSC in your era, but there are other options, too, such as a disc for up and one for main, operated by a single lever, but selected by turnout F ( which shouldn’t be labelled as such, that being for the subsidiary signal: I missed labelling this crossover!)

Also, using one lever and a five-way switch for signal F might be more electrically complicated than using 5 levers.

[Lacathedrale]

For the rotary switch, is it not a case of having an addition feed from the controller through the switch to either P1,2,3, Loop & Carriage siding, which is broken by lever F? 

I think for miniature arm (not disc) U and V, I would simply say that they always shunt via the up main and cut out the need for the extra levers? 

 

If we take the rotary switch for the BV controller out of the equation, then:

• The throat electrical connections are made by additional switch attached to turnout motion as before
• Signal F (with some kind of route setting) makes the relevant road made with the up line to the BV controller
• Signals KLMNOPQ when pulled off make the down main  (and attached FY traverser track), and the relevant platform and connect to BV controller
• Signals H*RSTUV make the up main and relevant platform and connect to the BV controller
• Signals XYZ make the up main and relevant platform to the BV controller
• Signal W to make the traverser track feed and swap up main feed to FY controller (i.e. in concert with XYZ or after train from UV has been brought to half infront of it) 

 

* H = Loco shunt signal

 

How will power get to the loop track (let's say, we're running around a train) before it's signalled for exit via UV? 

 

 

@phil_sutters thank you kindly for that link, I will review shortly! 

Edited July 17, 2022 by Lacathedrale

[Regularity]

4 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

How will power get to the loop track (let's say, we're running around a train) before it's signalled for exit via UV? 

That still requires a switched feed, to what I termed “turntable road”.

[Lacathedrale]

Actuation - Mechanical or Electronic?

I'm trying to figure out what I can do before the boards get here - still a couple of weeks away I think. I figure with all the energy that's gone into designing the signalling and turnout actuation I may as well get on with the bloody making of it!  The only meaningful question is whether or not it results in mechanical or electronic actuation of the various items. All the turnouts and signals for the layout (save the ground frame) are on a single board, so mechanical operation jumps out at me.

 

Of course though, if I do that then while perfect from home it's going to be very tough to exhibit because yours truly will have to be sat facing away from the punters in the middle of the layout to operate it! With a 30+ lever frame I'm not sure that making it mechanically pluggable is going to work. Unless someone has a bright idea, I think I'm going to go with mechanical actuation - the idea of bloody servos, microcontrollers, etc. is already giving me a headache.

 

Electronics - General

I do apologise to the other readers of this thread who have no interest at all in the electronic pedantry that's going on at the moment but I think we've basically got it.

 

Though the ground frame may be prototypical, since I need to include a king lever for it (and will also need the actual levers for the turnouts) I'm only really saving one lever by not having it controlled from the box. The 220yd-350yd limit for rodding is well within reach from the signal box location - this is in place at Brighton in the period I'm modelling so is at least prototypical?

 

Electronics - Shunt Toggle for Loop/Carriage/Turntable Shunting

 

8 hours ago, Regularity said:

<Use of Runaround Loop> still requires a switched feed, to what I termed “turntable road”.

 

Makes sense despite my desire to go signals-only. Once a train has pulled past the crossover on P3, signal M is returned to normal and the entire road is dead. Turn a monty-python style pointing finger toggle from 'Normal' to 'Shunt' and it disconnects the BV controller feed from the normal power routing and connects it directly to the loop/dock/turntable/carriage siding block. This allows power to flow to the tip of P3 ahead of the runaround. When the movement is all finished, you can reset the toggle and pull off Signal U to exit to the up main via the BV controller. NB: The carriage sidings are not accessible without shunting back from the Up main via F5, but keeping all of those roads in the same block simplifies the wiring.

 

Happily there's no meaningful danger if any other signals or routes are thrown while the Shunt toggle is on, since they would all linking to the BV controller connection that's now switched out to the loop. Since Shunt cuts off the routing to the main lines, movements across the throat will stall once they get to the (dead) Up main (Send Bell code 3-1!) and the Shunt toggle would need to be restored and the relevant signal (U or V) pulled.  

 

The shunt toggle would need to lock the loop exit C open somehow, otherwise it would be possible to pull W (which electronically switches Up Main and the selected Platform road (via the starter) from BV to FY) and have conflicting control along the route. I guess there is a good deal of mechanical interlocking that can be implemented at a later date! 

 

Most crucially I'm going to have track feeds from the toe of each turnout which will be isolated from each other, as will the various dead-end roads - so I can amend this pattern or indeed, convert to DCC immediately.
 

[Regularity]

Plenty of layouts are operated from the front, with the operator with his back to the public. If this position is occupied by the signalman, then the other operators can be behind the layout, and the public  get to see how railways were run in the past, so it’s educational, too - especially if the locking frame is visible!

 

You can use model aircraft control cables to operate you points and signals, and won’t have to worry about cranks, compensators: simpler than traditional steel wire in nylon tube, and worth any extra expense. Start off with GEM lever frames, and replace later with a handbuilt version.

[Lacathedrale]

Ah, I was actually going to look at the Scalefour lever frames - they're the same price as GEM and have the switch compatibility built in. Is there any reason to go for one over the other?

 

Can you please link me the kind of control cables you're talking about? (this kind of thing or specifically model air?)

 

I'm going to need to have some brass rod between the lever and the control rodding for the other electrical switching whatever happens, right?

Edited July 18, 2022 by Lacathedrale

[Regularity]

The S4 units are much better. Hadn’t realised how expensive those GEM frames were.

 

No, not that type of control tube: more like this:

https://www.sussex-model-centre.co.uk/accessories/aircraft-accessories/control-rods-snakes/snakes/snake-heavyweight-fittings-1m-pr

 

Found that randomly on a search, but it’s the snakes you want. You might not need other rodding: levers can push against microswitches, as can turnout operating units and cranks.

 

If you want to use under baseboard rodding, see Trevor Nunn’s articles on East Lynn in MRJ, or better still, the various articles he wrote for the S Scale Newsletter in the 90s.

 

[Lacathedrale]

Track Plan

Here's a reminder of the physical, rather than logical layout:

 

Brighton Victoria / Wickham Heath v1.3 - Double Slip on Carriage Siding Exit

 

I have caved and replaced the single slip with a double, just so that I  don't have to set up a single blind siding (aka trap point) for the pilot siding. Luckily, PECO Bullhead Single Slips are still well sought after so just a bit of annoying admin to buy one and sell the other.

 

Lever Frame

The light green area in the trackplan above is the approximate footprint of a 30 lever frame which is about the requirement for this layout.

 

My current thoughts are to bolt a 2" square wooden base to the front of the layout tall enough to support the future addition of interlocking. This should place the crank for the frame near the underside of the baseboard.

 

The S4 Levers have a built in SPDT microswitch, and the frog is on a unifrog point is very small indeed (about half an inch?). I could probably get away with the built-in microswitch switch initially being used only for the power routing and leaving the frog dead. I can prove out the entire thing that way without actually hooking up any cranks/rods or frog switching.

 

R/C Plane Cables vs Cranks and Rods

I'll do some digging on them. I'm not sure how happy I am with an additional £3.50-£5 per lever (that's another £100 for the frame). The distance from the most remote turnout to the frame is 2'6" - 3'. Maybe it'll be a case of experimentation. I'll check out Trevor's articles too - is there a handy index I can use to locate them? Mr. Denny also wrote a fair bit in his Buckingham books so I can review those.

 

54' Billinton Carriages

My re-read of RM is finally bearing fruit - a series of articles detailing the cut and shut of the Triang Clerestory coaches into the Billinton LBSCR 54' bogie coaches. As per my 'train requirements' I could do with a few of these so have put a sneaky bid on eBay for a few to chop up. It requires a new roof and ends, partitions, and ventilators. In theory the bogies should be 2mm shorter but I think I can live with that, but I'll need to put proper wheels in them.

 

48' Stroudley Carriages

Similarly, the Ratio MR coaches are pretty much 'close enough' for LBSCR coaches. The All 3rd is a dead ringer (albeit needing a smaller 8' bogie to replace the 10' one) and the rest are more approximate, but no less than the Hornby and Hattons generic coaches. If it's good enough for Mr. Denny, it's good enough for me.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Lacathedrale