Brighton Trafalgar - An Edwardian LB&SCR Terminus

[SR71]

Extra slow running is a bug bare of mine at shows.

 

1) try that in a 2 cyl loco and see what happens unless coasting.

2) unless modelling a preserved line it's a business, a job. People will be getting it done as quick as they can get away with.

 

Many years ago on the NYMR there was an ex BR crew reunited on a standard 4 for the summer. Rather than creeping along they were accelerating smoothly and quickly up to line speed, notching up as soon as they could. Coming into the stations the braking was firm and, most importantly, they were releasing the train brakes while still rolling and stopping on the loco brake while the driver wound the engine back to full forward gear ready for the off.

[Lacathedrale]

I went to the Toy Collector's Fair at the Bluebell today in search of a) the Hornby Skaledale Horsted Keynes signal box and b) the Dapol A1 Terrier in Umber. Neither were forthcoming, but I did find this nice print from the carriage art shop showing H1 No. 40 (to be St. Catherine's Point) pulling out of Brighton, while B4 No. 52 "Sussex" (nee Siemens) pulls into Platform 8. It looks like a C variant in the platform in Goods Green:

 

 

The B4 was only renamed Sussex in 1908 but still has the IEG livery, interesting but maybe anachronistic?

 

Anyway, not directly related to the layout but very much akin to it.

[Tom Burnham]

Unfortunately you won't have been able to see Terrier "Poplar" (aka Bodiam) working following damage to a connecting rod. :-(

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

The B4 was only renamed Sussex in 1908 but still has the IEG livery, interesting but maybe anachronistic?

 

According to the Brighton Circle website, un-named between September 1905 and September 1908. It's not made clear but I presume that means repainted umber in September 1905.

[Lacathedrale]

@Tom Burnham you're right, I didn't - but it was my first time seeing a Terrier in the flesh and it was wonderful nonetheless:

 

 

[Nick Holliday]

52 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

According to the Brighton Circle website, un-named between September 1905 and September 1908. It's not made clear but I presume that means repainted umber in September 1905.

The whole thing is rather more complicated than this!  There were two B4’s called Sussex.  The first was number 72, which carried its name until July 1907, so totally compatible with the painting, as the H1 Atlantics appeared 1905/6. The confusion arises from the fact that, at the time the decision was made to perpetuate the name Sussex, both 52 (Siemens) and 72 (Sussex) were in Brighton works. No 52 had less work to be done on it, so it emerged first, having acquired its new name and umber livery.  The Circle entry probably refers to the situation that No 52 was included in the livery trials, in September 1905, so it lost its Stroudley livery, receiving instead one of the green variants, but retaining its name, so the three year gap is likely to cover this; there seems to be little documentary evidence to say how long these experimental liveries survived.

[Lacathedrale]

The following photograph turned up on the Brighton Circle illustrating the E1. It shows the ramp-end of the Eastbourne platforms some time between 1903 and 1906, and gives a general feel for what I'm trying to achieve:

 

 

This shows E1 Calvados in Goods Green, which was de-named in 1906.  It looks like there are examples of Umber (brake), Mahogany (3rd class coaches), and Umber/White Lav First (?) all in the same train.  Of minor interest it also looks like the foreground post was originally slotted - you can see the slot and the slightly fatter cheeks, and a metal bracket forming the pivot point for the ringed shunt signal.

 

[Oldddudders]

On 31/07/2022 at 11:59, Lacathedrale said:

 

 

 

That painting (by Jack Hill?) appeared as the dustcover of a fat volume in the early '60s entitled "The Railway Lover's Companion". Full of good stuff, I think I was sent it by an aunt for my 13th birthday. 

 

Edit : I think it was from that book that this then-teenager learnt the important fact that the Kinki-Nippon Railway in Japan is the only electric railway in the world with a station called Fuse. 

 

Not everybody knows that, apparently. 

Edited August 1, 2022 by Oldddudders

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

That painting (by Jack Hill?) appeared as the dustcover of a fat volume in the early '60s entitled "The Railway Lover's Companion". Full of good stuff, I think I was sent it by an aunt for my 13th birthday. 

 

I knew I'd seen it somewhere!

 

 

My father-in-law has a copy. Good for retreating in to, sometimes!

[Tom Burnham]

Edited by Bryan Morgan. When I was young I really loved his "The End of the Line" and a few years ago I was able to pick up a second hand copy.

[Pacific231G]

1 hour ago, Tom Burnham said:

Edited by Bryan Morgan. When I was young I really loved his "The End of the Line" and a few years ago I was able to pick up a second hand copy.

I love "The End of the Line" and "The Railway Lover's Companion" is also excellent bedtime reading and IMHO the best of that type of compendium.

 

On 30/07/2022 at 21:51, SR71 said:

Extra slow running is a bugbear of mine at shows.

 

1) try that in a 2 cyl loco and see what happens unless coasting.

2) unless modelling a preserved line it's a business, a job. People will be getting it done as quick as they can get away with.

 

Sometime ago we were watching a video of one of the German NG lines when it was in full commercial operation. Shunting was at a speed that would get brickbats at most exhibitions.

[Lacathedrale]

If you've been following my workbench thread you'll know that the interminable to and fro of ordering detail parts has made progress on the carriage front rather slow. In the meantime, I've started to knock up the interim "lever frame" discussed earlier:

 

 

Each of the switches represents a signal lever. Of course, there are no actual signals attached to them, but they will perform the correct function of making or isolating track sections. 

 

Keeping the electronics simple is a deliberate choice, as beyond simple switches it is very much a weak point of mine and does not come to me naturally. While it might look complicated, but the wiring is very simple - and should give me a decent approximation of the 'signal block' style of layout operation is like before I go to the expense and time of building five or six of the etched S4S units:

• For an arrival on the down mainline, this is dealt with by the Station controller which is normally connected to it. Once the train is on approach or halted at the signal gantry, home levers are pulled to make a connection from the down mainline to a particular platform and it can be driven to the buffers.
• For a departure, the relevant departure signal is pulled which makes a connection from that road to the up mainline. Puling the Advanced Starter makes a connection from the up mainline to the FY controller and the departure can then be driven into the Fiddle yard.
• For a shunt within station limits, the relevant shunt signal is pulled which makes both simultaneous connection to the up mainline as per a departure signal, and a connection from the Station controller to the up mainline.

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Lacathedrale

[Lacathedrale]

With the kind advice I think I've sorted out my E1 pre-orders.  The Rapido E1 in Lined Goods Green, or Lined Black (i.e. @BlueLightning's Train Times exclusive) would be just in period. I guess it makes sense given the Marsh black livery adoption, but it didn't twig for me that Umber was only applied on Goods locos post-1921, which has saved me £140 - thank you @Nick Holliday!

 

This Umber question of course made me immediately start to worry about my E4 and annoyingly, neither of the RTR Umber E4's are correct for 1911 - Birch Grove was de-named in 1906, and No 579 was still called "Roehampton" until 1912. Ah well, I guess we're going into 1912 too. I will do my best to hold off running it alongside a Jenny Lind after all.

 

Posted a WANTED add on FB for an Umber Terrier and got this warning:

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Lacathedrale

[Nick C]

Probably better to refer to A1/A1x! Or better still, by the appropriate reference number of the variant(s) you're after - 4S-010-009 ? 

[Lacathedrale]

18 hours ago, Nick C said:

Probably better to refer to A1/A1x! Or better still, by the appropriate reference number of the variant(s) you're after - 4S-010-009 ? 

 

Given I've been checking the liveries, numbers and names of the E1's and the E4's I thought I'd better check the A1's. Annoyingly, none of those offered are correct for the Brighton area in 1911:

 

Rails A1 Terrier No. 643 (Gipsy Hill) - needs renumbering

The new Rails/Dapol Terrier A1 No 643 (Gipsy Hill) was only de-named in 1919 and so the locomotive would need to be renumbered to fit into my time period, really. 679 Minories (apt!) ran motor trains from Brighton in 1907-1910 so that's the target if I can get my hands on these.

 

Dapol A1 No. 82 (Boxhill) - needs converting 

Boxhill and Beulah are two very interesting Terriers: they underwent successful motor train trials as 2-4-0T's from 1905-1911. It seems Boxhill retained her name and the IEG livery until 1909, so it only remains to de-couple the front wheel and fit a little leading wheel, any ideas?

 

It must be said that from 1909 the locomotive was re-numbered to 682 and potentially re-painted into Umber, but there is no photographic evidence - and it would be nice to have a bit of IEG on the layout!

 

Dapol A1x Terrier No. 662 (Martello) - technically OK

The 1980's Dapol release is correct for 1912 condition but the Dapol livery has the wrong font, no dark-umber borders, etc. so it probably needs a re-paint - and if I'm going to do that I may as well buy a the more modern model and benefit from the modern mechanism/etc.

 

Both No 662 (Martello) and No. 678 (Knowle) were motor-fitted and converted from A1 to A1x in my time period. The latter was allocated to Littlehampton so ideal for East Coastway services. 

Edited August 4, 2022 by Lacathedrale

[Nick C]

I wouldn't bother with the old Dapol tooling, while good for it's time, it really does look dated compared with the modern ones. 

 

It says in Handel Kardas' book that Boxhill was painted in Stroudley goods green at the time of the 2-4-0t experiments... edit - saying that, photos clearly show it in IEG...

Edited August 4, 2022 by Nick C

[Nick Holliday]

William

Any chance of you slowing down to give us lesser mortals a chance to catch up with you?

On 03/08/2022 at 18:59, Lacathedrale said:

Given I've been checking the liveries, numbers and names of the E1's and the E4's I thought I'd better check the A1's. Annoyingly, none of those offered are correct for the Brighton area in 1911:

 

Rails A1 Terrier No. 643 (Gipsy Hill) - needs renumbering

The new Rails/Dapol Terrier A1 No 643 (Gipsy Hill) was only de-named in 1919 and so the locomotive would need to be renumbered to fit into my time period, really. 679 Minories (apt!) ran motor trains from Brighton in 1907-1910 so that's the target if I can get my hands on these.

Not sure where you are getting your information from, but Gipsy Hill was originally numbered 43, and was put on the Duplicate List as No. 643 in April 1902.  It lost its name in May 1906, and would have been painted in the then new(ish) umber livery and left the shops ready for service on the motor trains - one of the earliest after the pioneering pair, working  on the Hayling Island branch.  1919 was the year she received the new boiler and became an A1X.

Minories had a similar history - lost her name in July 1906, painted umber and fitted out for motor train working the same year.  Renumbered 679 in 1907 and to A1X in 1912. Does any of that fit in with the Rails model?

BTW the last loco to run in Stroudley IEG was E5 Tillington, which, thanks to cosseting by New Cross depot staff, retained it until September 1917!

On 03/08/2022 at 18:59, Lacathedrale said:

Dapol A1 No. 82 (Boxhill) - needs converting 

Boxhill and Beulah are two very interesting Terriers: they underwent successful motor train trials as 2-4-0T's from 1905-1911. It seems Boxhill retained her name and the IEG livery until 1909, so it only remains to de-couple the front wheel and fit a little leading wheel, any ideas?

 

It must be said that from 1909 the locomotive was re-numbered to 682 and potentially re-painted into Umber, but there is no photographic evidence - and it would be nice to have a bit of IEG on the layout!

Boxhill's history is complicated.  There is much dispute as to the exact livery she received when converted to 2-4-0 and motor working in 1905. Written sources note she was in a green livery, but as Stroudley's "yellow" was titled "Improved Engine Green" there is scope for ambiguity, but it is difficult to see why commentators would get excited if the only change was the revised corners to the lining. I have no record as to when Boxhill lost her name and received umber paint - your 1909 date is not unlikely, and certainly it would have gone by the time of her return to six-wheel drive, which was in June 1913. However, she received her duplicate number of 682 in November 1911. She continued to be employed on motor train duties from Tunbridge Wells until 1920, when she was transferred back to Brighton Works, where she had spent a year after her re-conversion, and an early stint from 1898 to 1905, before she was plucked from obscurity for here transformation.  In 1920, however, she was actually lettered for the task, Loco Works Brighton, lost here number, but had it replaced by a Brighton crest on the bunker, which survived until grouping.

It should be noted that, apart from Boxhill, to the best of my knowledge no other Terrier worked a motor train in Stroudley livery, carrying a name.

 

On 03/08/2022 at 18:59, Lacathedrale said:

Dapol A1x Terrier No. 662 (Martello) - technically OK

The 1980's Dapol release is correct for 1912 condition but the Dapol livery has the wrong font, no dark-umber borders, etc. so it probably needs a re-paint - and if I'm going to do that I may as well buy a the more modern model and benefit from the modern mechanism/etc.

 

Both No 662 (Martello) and No. 678 (Knowle) were motor-fitted and converted from A1 to A1x in my time period. The latter was allocated to Littlehampton so ideal for East Coastway services. 

For the record, No. 662 was fitted with motor train gear in October 1909, at the same time losing its name and emerging in umber, as did No. 678 in May 1907. However 662 had to wait until December 1912 to receive its new A1X boiler, 678 getting hers in November 1911. In 1912, 662 was stationed at West Croydon and 678 at Horsham, where she had been since around 1907, but by 1916 they were both stationed together at Littlehampton. (Your 1911 date is getting a bit battered!)

If I remember correctly the original Dapol model is rather a mongrel, and does not accurately represent a pukka Brighton A1X conversion, as the sandboxes above the running plate have been retained, as per the home-brewed Isle of Wight conversions.

[Lacathedrale]

No danger of that @Nick Holliday - I’ve just become a dad!

[Mikkel]

Congratulations! 

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

I’ve just become a dad!

 

Congratulations!

 

Not asking for a weight diagram but leading dimensions?

[t-b-g]

Many congratulations William. We will forgive you if you are distracted from the modelling for a while!

[Caley Jim]

Congratulations. Hope you're prepared for the upheaval in your life! 

 

Jim 

Edited August 5, 2022 by Caley Jim
Typo

[Nick Holliday]

As I said earlier, the history of Iis quite complex, and I forgot to refer to another source, Maskelyne's Locos of the LBSCR which says 

 

In 1909, Nos 642 and 682 - to use their later numbers - were taken over  by the Locomotive Department and employed as Yard shunter at Battersea and Works shunter at Brighton respectively.  For several years they both had no numbers and were lettered “Locomotive Department” but in 1922 the Battersea engine was re-transferred to the Running Department, she had her number reinstated: and the initials of the Company painted on the side tanks in the standard style. It is also worthy of note that this engine, always retained the umber brown livery adopted by Mr. Marsh for passenger engines, while the Brighton shunter was painted in the standard Goods livery, black with red lining, though she was afterwards altered to umber.  The latter engine was never transferred to the Running Department but remained in the service of the Locomotive Department at Brighton right down to the end of 1923, and, latterly, was lettered "Locomotive Department, Brighton.”

 

This is not quite compatible with other printed sources, but perhaps as it was written in 1928 JNM was a  little closer to the events than later commentators.

[Schooner]

Many congratulations, all the best to the three of you!

[ChrisN]

Congratulations!  Life will never be the same again.