P4 help

[the black knight]

hi all,

 

I've been pondering about modelling P4 for a bit now and tried to read up on it, I've converted a couple of wagons shorts wb and lner 20t plate wagon these are compensated, but my main problem I've designed a layout and I've had to add couple curve point in, and i want to shunt through the points not just pulling, and the inner radius is aprx 700mm.

my interest is industrial locos but i want to model a coupe of main line loco the biggest loco is a 9f. I know there problems already there for some locos but is a 9f going to work or with reliability an issues and compromising so much(loco and track). should i just do EM gauge? 

I'm modelling N.E 50/60s, so quite a few longer wb stock.

hopefully someone can understand what I'm saying (sorry).

TBK.

Edited July 4, 2022 by the black knight

[davknigh]

Hi TBK,

 

First off have you had a look at https://www.scalefour.org/moving-to-p4/? You may find some answers to your questions there. You can also pose questions on the Scalefour Forum in the visitors area https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=37&sid=abc977dcd34ff1e1e4b4924ff7b50398

It sounds like you’re off to a good start with conversions! The curves you mention should present no problems for the average industrial engine but will probably not be practical for a 9F, but then the same was true on the real thing.

 

Cheers,

 

David

[martin_wynne]

11 hours ago, the black knight said:

I've been pondering about modelling P4 for a bit now and tried to read up on it, I've converted a couple of wagons shorts wb and lner 20t plate wagon these are compensated, but my main problem I've designed a layout and I've had to add couple curve point in, and i want to shunt through the points not just pulling, and the inner radius is aprx 700mm.

my interest is industrial locos but i want to model a coupe of main line loco the biggest loco is a 9f. I know there problems already there for some locos but is a 9f going to work or with reliability an issues and compromising so much(loco and track). should i just do EM gauge? 

I'm modelling N.E 50/60s, so quite a few longer wb stock.

 

Hi,

 

Difficult to answer as you haven't said what it is about P4 that attracts you?

 

Generally P4 is a good choice if you enjoy building individual detailed models to exact scale. EM is a better choice for a large operational railway. Between the two lies EM-SF which gives most of the visual improvement of P4 track while allowing your models to run also on other standard EM layouts, and most other EM models to run on your layout (if fitted with kit wheels), even uncompensated.

 

700mm is a tight radius in any gauge, even 00-SF, but you can get anything to run round any radius with sufficient gauge-widening during construction. The difficulty arises with buffers and couplings, but that is the same regardless of track gauge.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[the black knight]

I've read around the scalefour forums and gauge widening seems mainly on just plain track not points and also side play on the locos, my interest in p4 is aesthetics and challenge of the locos and track (and having CSB on the locos) , i do enjoy the building the stock and watching them go around or shunt.  i would like to use 3 link but i have been looking at sprat & winkle. I've had a look at em-sf and it looks a good compromise between the two for looks and reliability. I'm happy to build the track.

 

so i should compromise and go for em+em-sf.

 

the reason for the question is I designed a layout simple twin track Roundy with and 3 lane exchange + small colliery. and i got the curve and points to be about 1000mm minimum on the mainline track but in the fiddle yard + exchange yard i couldn't get them to work unless i dropped down the curve point is 1200mm outer radius and 749mm inner radius ,B switch,V8 frog  The space I've got is 14x9  with a train lengths of 9f with 12 20t hopper+ brakevan.  9f would be the biggest loco with others being typical LNER freight locos etc... but i am mainly concentrating on industrial locos.

hopefully that explains something.

 

thank you.

 

TBK.

 

  

Edited July 5, 2022 by the black knight

[the black knight]

sorry should add the colliery sits above the fiddle yard.

 

TBK.

[Paul Cram]

53 minutes ago, the black knight said:

I've read around the scalefour forums and gauge widening seems mainly on just plain track not points and also side play on the locos, my interest in p4 is aesthetics and challenge of the locos and track (and having CSB on the locos) , i do enjoy the building the stock and watching them go around or shunt.  i would like to use 3 link but i have been looking at sprat & winkle. I've had a look at em-sf and it looks a good compromise between the two for looks and reliability. I'm happy to build the track.

 

so i should compromise and go for em+em-sf.

 

the reason for the question is I designed a layout simple twin track Roundy with and 3 lane exchange + small colliery. and i got the curve and points to be about 1000mm minimum on the mainline track but in the fiddle yard + exchange yard i couldn't get them to work unless i dropped down the curve point is 1200mm outer radius and 749mm inner radius ,B switch,V8 frog  The space I've got is 14x9  with a train lengths of 9f with 12 20t hopper+ brakevan.  9f would be the biggest loco with others being typical LNER freight locos etc... but i am mainly concentrating on industrial locos.

hopefully that explains something.

 

thank you.

 

TBK.

 

  

On Hawes we have gauge widening through the point work for the sisdings which are 1:5 crossongs. A class X 4-8-0 happily goes through these. Hawes is P4.

[martin_wynne]

1 hour ago, the black knight said:

I've read around the scalefour forums and gauge widening seems mainly on just plain track not points

 

Gauge-widening is fine through pointwork provided you remember that the check rail gap must increase by the same amount. This happens automatically if you use the proper check gauge tool to set the check rail from the opposite rail:

 

 

Widen C and D, both by the same amount.

 

A, B, and E remain unchanged.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[the black knight]

 

putting my mind at rest a bit, reading up again on gauge widening on the scale4 forum and taking info here, as long as i give at least 0.8mm sideplay on the wheels except the ones behind the slide bar and widen accordingly the check rail gap, it should be possible. i think the best i can do is just gonna go for it and buy chassis kit of a 9f  and build some points and see if it will work....reliably.

 

thank you all.

 

TBK.

 

 

[DCB]

A P4 9F,  now that's a challenge, even the 00 Hornby version is 4mm or 1 scale foot over scale width.

[hayfield]

Would your large locos use all the turnouts on the layout?

 

I assume they would only use the exchange sidings. You could design the layout so that on the smaller turnouts the larger locos use the straight/larger radii roads

 

As well as 3 point track gauges Exactoscale used to sell gauge widened roller gauges ref 4XX TG01. Sadly not in production anymore but I guess many are in folks draws unused, put out a request

 

Exactoscale still sell 2 versions of check rail chair 4CH 402A  0.68 flangeway (standard) and 4CG 403A 0.8 flangeway which is gauge widened. Fit these with check rail gauges and they should be spot on

 

One tip I got from Norman Solomon was to have a rolling (un-powered) loco chassis, ensuring its very free rolling. Simply tilt one end of the turnout and see if the chassis runs through faultlessly 

[the black knight]

Hi,

 I've checked the track plan and realising the 9f will go if only using the outer sidings of the inside and outside loops and the 2 outer sidings of the exchange yard without needing to go below 1000mm. all the points on the scenic are about 1000mm-1200mm diverge. it just the fiddle yard. where the point are 750mm diverge. 

 

I've drawn some etches of various track widening gauges and I've bought some rail + PCB and a 9f chassis kit. soo I'm waiting for them to arrive. also going to start converting some locos to P4 to test. 

 

thanks for the info hayfield.

 

TBK.

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by the black knight

[hayfield]

TBK

 

I do have one reservation with your first P4 chassis build, usually when doing a first it is wise to start with a basic/simple to build item, I would have thought a 9F falls outside this category

 

But I do recognise the choice is for this is to be a test piece to ascertain the practicalities of your chosen size of turnout in P4 with large locos. With this in mind would it be an idea simply initially building a basic rolling chassis without all the added detail, at first even without valve gear

 

One option if things are a bit tight may be using EM gauge chassis spacers, then using axle washers to control the amount of side play 

[the black knight]

hi,

 

sorry for the big gap, been busy.  after testing and building a couple of wagons and a high level class 03 chassis kit (i ended up getting this instead of the 9f after hayfield post). I had mixed results with my testing of gauge widening track and after reading a couple of posts on EM vs P4, I've chosen EM.  for what im trying to achieve and the limit space i have, EM is close enough for me.

 

thanks all for helping.

 

TBK.

[Jeff Smith]

Probably the right choice for your layout ambitions.  When I started in P4 72" was considered a good minimum radius without any trickery!

Edited September 29, 2022 by Jeff Smith