blankmag Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 any point on layout trips circuit breaker which stops train then when circuit breaker resets train moves .this is my first time ever building a model railway layout so complete novice ,before point motor fitted trains run through all points no problems what so ever when moved by hand !!!!!! .circuit breaker is a psx-1 set at 1.27 amps , gaugemaster advance 2 controller (3.5 amps ) layout has 15 point motors any advice cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted July 9, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 9, 2022 Hi Blankmag Welcome to RM Web A bit more info required. e.g. point motor type, DCC system type, type of points - insulfrog/electrofrog/unifrog/Hornby etc. How wired? N.B. the PSX series can be very sensitive, I've had to remove mine because it tripped far to often. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 Also, how are the frog polarities being switched? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blankmag Posted July 9, 2022 Author Share Posted July 9, 2022 hi melerby thanks for your quick reply -gaugemaster gmc-pm10 points ,Hornby code 100 set track , Hornby insulfrog points with Hornby point clips fitted . all wired to one bus circuit ,4 rk cdu2 high power motor capacitor discharge units Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted July 9, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2022 How are the points being powered? I trust not from the DCC bus.... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blankmag Posted July 9, 2022 Author Share Posted July 9, 2022 errmmmm yes only one bus wire should i run two sets of bus wires one for track one for points ect ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerdee Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 Are you using can DCC accessory decoder to switch the points?. You cannot use a point CDU and switches just connected to the DCC bus. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted July 9, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 9, 2022 5 minutes ago, blankmag said: errmmmm yes only one bus wire should i run two sets of bus wires one for track one for points ect ? Are you saying the CDU is powered from the DCC or a separate 15v AC supply? How are you switching them? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blankmag Posted July 9, 2022 Author Share Posted July 9, 2022 i think by reading all your replies i now know my mistake ------ one bus wire and yes cdu are joined to bus wire and switched by toggle switches .so will now run a second set of bus wires and connect points and cdu to that i am sure it will help . its been a big learning experience and a hard slog to be fair . i dont like fitting point motors under the board but by point ten it got better lol . thanks to all who replied ------- thank you Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted July 9, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2022 You must use a separate power supply for the points. Usually a 15v AC transformer with 3 amp supply will be fine. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ITG Posted July 9, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2022 I’m not sure I can understand what decoders are driving the Pm10s. The PM10 D has a decoder with it, but the PM10 doesn’t. Surely either a decoder is needed per point motor, or they need powering by a completely separate supply with appropriate switches. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 The use of the DCC bus as a power supply isn’t an issue per se, indeed many people do this all the time. If you are using a PM10D connected to the DCC Bus then that is exactly what you are doing. The use of a physical switch to power the CDU from the DCC bus and thus change the turnout is doing the same as the PM10D is doing electronically. I suggest that the actually problem is simply that the PSX is simply set at too low a current ergo it is ‘shorting out’ then resetting once the solenoid has changed and the CDU has recovered. I would suggest though that the use of a separate power supply is the best solution which will cure the issue until such time as the OP decides that want to switch the turnouts using DCC as accessory decoders will then be required and they need to be ‘man enough’ for the job, however until that point either increase the current limit on the PSX or install a separate bus - both should cure the issue. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted July 9, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 9, 2022 7 minutes ago, ITG said: I’m not sure I can understand what decoders are driving the Pm10s. The PM10 D has a decoder with it, but the PM10 doesn’t. Surely either a decoder is needed per point motor, or they need powering by a completely separate supply with appropriate switches. OP has said he is powering the CDU from the DCC and using toggle switches to operate the points, so no point decoders. Just needs to use a separate 15v AC transformer for the CDUs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blankmag Posted July 9, 2022 Author Share Posted July 9, 2022 i need a separate power supply and another bus it was all wired to the one bus with switches toggle and cdu . cheers 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted July 9, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 9, 2022 2 minutes ago, WIMorrison said: The use of the DCC bus as a power supply isn’t an issue per se, indeed many people do this all the time. If you are using a PM10D connected to the DCC Bus then that is exactly what you are doing. The use of a physical switch to power the CDU from the DCC bus and thus change the turnout is doing the same as the PM10D is doing electronically. I suggest that the actually problem is simply that the PSX is simply set at too low a current ergo it is ‘shorting out’ then resetting once the solenoid has changed and the CDU has recovered. I would suggest though that the use of a separate power supply is the best solution which will cure the issue until such time as the OP decides that want to switch the turnouts using DCC as accessory decoders will then be required and they need to be ‘man enough’ for the job, however until that point either increase the current limit on the PSX or install a separate bus - both should cure the issue. You will still get a substantial surge as the CDU initially starts to re-charge. The PSXs are very sensitive to power on surges. Mine tripped just powering up the layout with all the Switch-8s (low current devices) with a trip current setting of 3.5A. I had it set at the slowest setting and it still did it. (N.B. my Z21 doesn't trip at power on but will trip before the PSX if the PSX is set at more than say 4.5A when you get a real short) 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted July 9, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 9, 2022 6 minutes ago, blankmag said: i need a separate power supply and another bus it was all wired to the one bus with switches toggle and cdu . cheers Yes. Completely separate power supply & wiring for the CDUs 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted July 10, 2022 Share Posted July 10, 2022 (edited) Hi So as its clear... There are generally two distinct methods of operating point motors. A) Use the DCC and every point motor is operated via an Accessory decoder (standalone accessory decoders frequently can have 1 or up to around 8 outputs). They act as an interface between the DCC system and the solenoid point motor. Converting the DCC command for a point to move to a pulse output that is sent to the solenoid motors coil. Note where solenoid motors are used the accessory decoder must have a pulsed output. If standalone decoders are not used then the point motor must have an accessory decoder built in like the Gaugemaster PM10D ("D" denotes it has a decoder built in). Some point accessory decoders also allow push button or sprung to centre Off toggle switch operation too from a control panel, so then their operation can be dual - DCC from the throttle or by the PB/Switch on a panel etc. B) Use a totally separate power supply, as suggest 16v AC is frequently used, a CDU is directly feed from this power supply and its output Positive goes to all the operating switches/Push Buttons/Probe of Stud & Probe etc. Usually only one CDU is needed for the layout. If using switches or Push Buttons they MUST BE of the type that cannot remain locked in the On position. They have to be a Momentary connection that only makes when the lever is moved or the button is pressed. Toggle switches are of the (On)-Off-(On) type where the bracketed On cannot remain on when the switches lever is released - It springs back to the centre Off position. The switches have a middle wiring tab which is feed from the CDU Positive output, linking switch to switch middle tabs. Then each end of the switch has a wiring tab that runs out to the appropriate point motors left and right operation wires. The solenoid point motors wiring will also have a third return wire and this connects onto a motor common return wire that runs around under the layout and all point motor returns are connected onto this common wire that then runs back to the CDU output Negative. There is no "Bus wires" or other feeds where a separate power supply and CDU are used. But do ensure all wiring is of a suitable wire size. Here I recommend the smallest size to consider is 16/0.2mm equipment wire. Much of what has been stated is shown on my web site, for DC (Analogue) operation here... Link to click then scroll down a little and for DCC operation here ...DCC link click here 😊 Edited July 10, 2022 by Brian Typo corrected 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blankmag Posted July 10, 2022 Author Share Posted July 10, 2022 update i have changed psx-1 trip out to 3.8amp and its sorted all the cutting out problems but i will install another bus wire and get a transformer to run it. what power transformer to run it for second bus wire for point motors ect leaving my other transformer for the track 3.5 amp cheers 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinofLoxley Posted July 10, 2022 Share Posted July 10, 2022 AS you have set the PSX trip current higher than the power supply the PSX isnt doing anything any more. I was going to say that you may as well remove it from the circuit temporarily until you have a separate power supply for the CDU 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blankmag Posted July 10, 2022 Author Share Posted July 10, 2022 it still trips out when tested Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted July 10, 2022 Share Posted July 10, 2022 (edited) Do you have DCC Accessory Decoders for point motor operation everywhere? If so, what make and type? If you DO NOT have accessory decoders for the point motor operation, then STOP and please Read my post above! Edited July 10, 2022 by Brian 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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