Schooner's (Mostly Maritime) Layouts

[Tricky]

16 minutes ago, magmouse said:

Well, indeed - but you probably helped with a clear and detailed brief. Being a “good client” is more important than people sometimes realise.

 

This looks really great - and an excellent example of minimum space 7mm scale, with lots of play potential.

 

Resistance is futile…

 

Nick.

I can indeed confirm that @Schooner is a very well behaved customer! 

[Schooner]

19 minutes ago, magmouse said:

minimum space 7mm scale, with lots of play potential...

...and 6' radius curves, just in case I win the pools and Lee Marsh does another run... 

 

 

:)

 

Something of a missed opportunity that these are not to be the next RTR GWR loco from a well respected manufacturer...

 

 

 

Okay, back to joy being unconfined! 

 

PS. re minimum space, I recently realised the the loft space must be something like 40' x 10'...uhoh!

Edited March 25 by Schooner

[Schooner]

 

3.83m x 3.50m (floor); Beams upper 2.85m, 62cm from the floor, 78cm to the inner apex; Beam centres: 1.42m

 

Height, floor to inner apex: 1.68m

 

Hmmm...Suggestions invited!

 

The rest of the roof is of different construction - no beams for a start - but is very much au naturel at the moment; and doing anything with it comes after stopping the sea coming in from the bottom...*

 

*...and rain in from the top, and god-alone-knows coming in sideways through the wall from next door, and and and...

 

 

[magmouse]

51 minutes ago, Schooner said:

Hmmm...Suggestions invited!

 

My immediate thought - think 'cockpit', with the operator seated half way between the beams, head immediately below the roof apex, facing the window. The layout wraps around, with the main scenic space between the beams, below the window, making use of all that lovely light. Track layout with station/harbour/yard/industry centred, fed by either dumbbells either end or a loop of track round the outside of the space. Could have a fiddle yard behind the operator, who sits on a swivel chair.

 

Could be quite spacious for 4mm scale, but who needs that? Tight radii for 7mm scale but would suit an industrial scene, which would suit you.

 

Nick.

[St Enodoc]

17 hours ago, Schooner said:

 

3.83m x 3.50m (floor); Beams upper 2.85m, 62cm from the floor, 78cm to the inner apex; Beam centres: 1.42m

 

Height, floor to inner apex: 1.68m

 

Hmmm...Suggestions invited!

 

The rest of the roof is of different construction - no beams for a start - but is very much au naturel at the moment; and doing anything with it comes after stopping the sea coming in from the bottom...*

 

*...and rain in from the top, and god-alone-knows coming in sideways through the wall from next door, and and and...

 

 

Two thoughts/questions:

 

1. Where's the way in?

 

2. What's the horizontal distance between the inner edges of the rafters at backscene height above the beams (I think they're called collars)?

 

 

[Schooner]

On 06/04/2024 at 07:58, St Enodoc said:

1. Where's the way in?

I'm stood in it - oversize hatch, integrated ladder.

 

On 06/04/2024 at 07:58, St Enodoc said:

 

2. What's the horizontal distance between the inner edges of the rafters at backscene height above the beams (I think they're called collars)?

Ah, thank you! I did check but can't remember...quite a lot less than the collars, enough for me to discount that approach being Plan A. By the time there's space down the middle (I like @magmouse's cockpit idea, which chimes with how I tend to think of layouts anyway) the boards would need to be pretty narrow.

[Schooner]

 

The original - lifting - wooden railway bridge over the Pill at Fremington; replaced with the better-known iron bridge in 1880. From the excellent achive here. Woop woop!

 

Map below, for context

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17.1&lat=51.07376&lon=-4.11598&layers=178&b=1&o=100

 

PS. Oh, hello! Is that a 282 at Fremington? Ideal!

 

Edited April 14 by Schooner

[ianmianmianm]

I haven't had time to read the thread and found it by accident. However just letting you know that I noticed the OO9 society had a "Barbados Railcar" in their secondhand sales at Narrow Gauge South. It appeared to be an assembled brass kit. It was a bit too chunky for my freelance layout but I had to google it when I got home hence ended up here. I am doubtful if it has sold so if of any use get in touch with them. 

 

[Pacific231G]

On 25/03/2024 at 18:36, Schooner said:

.

 

 

...but he's ruddy good!

 

 

Peekaboo!

 

Now, I must remember to pack the house up before the move on Thurs...

 

...ooooor I could just quickly get a controller hooked up... :)

Apologies if this has already been covered earlier in this topic but what is the rather lovely coaster alongside the quay?

It looks a perfect design for a "proper" ship for a small harbour layout and far more typical than the very overused Clyde Puffer

[Schooner]

It's the Caldercraft SS Talacre kit - an RC capabale 1:48 coaster of a most useful design! As you say, nearly perfect for nearly all model railway quays. Sadly nothing comprable in 1:76 as far as I know.

 

As shown above it's as per the the kit, purchased as seen, but @Giles has done a typically excellent upgrade to 1:43 for his Sparrow layout:

 

In due course I'll be doing similar, not just to change scale (which with some sympathetic treatment is, I'd suggest, of minimal concern if it's at the back of the layout) but largely to backdate, re-detail and deal with a couple of idiosyncrasies.

 

I'll get back tomorrow with links to Giles' lovely layout, and FWIW to the other steam coaster (two hatch, long quarterdeck) and sailing coaster (topsail schooner, scaling out at c.90' LoD she's too big for the more versatile, if no more common, trading ketches) I was looking at as 'best fits' for these kind of layouts.

 

[Asterix2012]

On 16/05/2024 at 01:27, Schooner said:

It's the Caldercraft SS Talacre kit - an RC capabale 1:48 coaster of a most useful design! As you say, nearly perfect for nearly all model railway quays. Sadly nothing comprable in 1:76 as far as I know.

 

As shown above it's as per the the kit, purchased as seen, but @Giles has done a typically excellent upgrade to 1:43 for his Sparrow layout:

 

In due course I'll be doing similar, not just to change scale (which with some sympathetic treatment is, I'd suggest, of minimal concern if it's at the back of the layout) but largely to backdate, re-detail and deal with a couple of idiosyncrasies.

 

I'll get back tomorrow with links to Giles' lovely layout, and FWIW to the other steam coaster (two hatch, long quarterdeck) and sailing coaster (topsail schooner, scaling out at c.90' LoD she's too big for the more versatile, if no more common, trading ketches) I was looking at as 'best fits' for these kind of layouts.

 

Would it work currently as a bit of perspective at the back of the layout?

[Pacific231G]

On 16/05/2024 at 01:27, Schooner said:

It's the Caldercraft SS Talacre kit - an RC capabale 1:48 coaster of a most useful design! As you say, nearly perfect for nearly all model railway quays. Sadly nothing comprable in 1:76 as far as I know.

 

As shown above it's as per the the kit, purchased as seen, but @Giles has done a typically excellent upgrade to 1:43 for his Sparrow layout:

 

In due course I'll be doing similar, not just to change scale (which with some sympathetic treatment is, I'd suggest, of minimal concern if it's at the back of the layout) but largely to backdate, re-detail and deal with a couple of idiosyncrasies.

 

I'll get back tomorrow with links to Giles' lovely layout, and FWIW to the other steam coaster (two hatch, long quarterdeck) and sailing coaster (topsail schooner, scaling out at c.90' LoD she's too big for the more versatile, if no more common, trading ketches) I was looking at as 'best fits' for these kind of layouts.

 

Thanks very much for that Schooner.

 

I've been thinking about what distinguishes  a "proper" ship in these small sizes as compared with some kind of lighter or "puffer". I think it comes down to a proper bridge (not just a wheelhouse), accomodation on a raised quarter deck with the bridge above (a three island is usually too large) , lifeboats in davits, engine room skylight. 

If anyone is interested I have William Bolton's 1941 plan and construction article from MRN for a 1:76 scale motor coaster that John Ahern used for the MV Erica on the Madder Valley. It's about 15" long in 4mm scale.  It could obviously be up scaled to 1:43. 

 

If you can get hold of one, the former Frog "Shell Welder" can be the basis for quite a nice coaster in 1:76 or 1:87 scale if you raise the height of the quarter deck accomodation, and bridge, enlarge doors, portholes, companionways davits etc. and convert the tank top into a cargo hatch. It's a full hull rather than a waterline model but the hull shape is the sort that could probably "take the ground"  in a tidal harbour. 

[St Enodoc]

27 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

Thanks very much for that Schooner.

 

I've been thinking about what distinguishes  a "proper" ship in these small sizes as compared with some kind of lighter or "puffer". I think it comes down to a proper bridge (not just a wheelhouse), accomodation on a raised quarter deck with the bridge above (a three island is usually too large) , lifeboats in davits, engine room skylight. 

If anyone is interested I have William Bolton's 1941 plan and construction article from MRN for a 1:76 scale motor coaster that John Ahern used for the MV Erica on the Madder Valley. It's about 15" long in 4mm scale.  It could obviously be up scaled to 1:43. 

 

If you can get hold of one, the former Frog "Shell Welder" can be the basis for quite a nice coaster in 1:76 or 1:87 scale if you raise the height of the quarter deck accomodation, and bridge, enlarge doors, portholes, companionways davits etc. and convert the tank top into a cargo hatch. It's a full hull rather than a waterline model but the hull shape is the sort that could probably "take the ground"  in a tidal harbour. 

If you can get hold of one, Artitec do a very nice 1:87 kit for a typical Dutch coaster of the 1960s.

 

https://www.artitecshop.com/en/coastal-freighter.html

 

Usual disclaimer.

[The Johnster]

4 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

 

I've been thinking about what distinguishes  a "proper" ship in these small sizes as compared with some kind of lighter or "puffer"

 

Sea-going ability.  Lighters, Puffers, and the like are designed for sheltered waters or inland waterways, not that this precluded them from short open sea journeys.  A ship designed for open sea use, even for coastal traffic, has sufficient freeboard forward to deal with fair size seas, and this is usually big enough for the crew accommodation.  It will rarely be able to 'take the hard'; sea-going ability suggests a keel prominent throughout the ship's length to give her good steerage and course-holding. and this will prevent her sitting upright on the hard.

 

The Aritech Dutch Coaster, capable of penetrating well inland on the European waterways with their collapsible masts and removable bridge structure (up the Rhine as far as Basle), and happy enough to cross the North Sea and coast around to the western side of Britain in reasonable weather, is a sort of half-way house and a very common sight (certainly in the South Wales ports) in the 60s.  My dad called them Dutch Barges, but they were not really barges in the same way as the sailing vessels that preceded them were.  Puffers are very common on harbour layouts, for good reason, but in fact were rare outside of their traditional area; the Firth of Clyde and the islands sheltered from the full force of the Atlantic fetch by the Outer Hebrides.  They made their way to the East Coast through the canals, though, and down to Stranraer.  A notable exeption was the (in)famous 'Snowflake', owned by an Ilfracombe skipper and trading from that port up the Bristol Channel in between the wars, and often getting into trouble and having to be towed out of it.  Kevin KNP has a model of her on Little Muddle.

[Schooner]

Sorry about the delay chaps, but better late than never.

 

Right, first things first. More on @Giles' Sparrow can be found here: 

 

 

and its rather charming motive power here

 

 

The other steam coaster I have my eye on is here:

https://www.mountfleetmodels.co.uk/product/ss-jarrix/

 

 

Launched at Selby (top of the Humber) in 1917, she's a little late for my tastes; but like Talacre could be reasonably and simply backdated whilst being brought up to 1:43 from the kit's native 1:48.

 

Schooner hull:

https://www.sarikhobbies.com/product/topsail-schooner-plan-hull-set/

 

She scales out at a tidy c.96' LoA, which is pretty good, and in being hull and plans only means there would be little wastage...but plenty more scratch building.

 

For a full kit, the best out of the box would be

https://www.mantuamodel.co.uk/products/ship-kits/panart/442/la-rose-detail

 

Typically French (immediately told by her roller reefing topsail, a great idea that the Brits studiously avoided), but as good as it gets I think.

 

On 18/05/2024 at 12:05, Asterix2012 said:

Would it work currently as a bit of perspective at the back of the layout?

In short, I don't yet know. That's sort of Plan A, but my rough mockups so far suggests the change in scale a little jarring between wagon and wessel - it's too great a change at too small a distance for me. Other layouts will vary, of course, and it would be a very effective way of adding visual depth to some scenarios.

 

On 18/05/2024 at 18:31, St Enodoc said:

Artitec do a very nice 1:87 kit for a typical Dutch coaster of the 1960s.

They do! But has anyone found any of their products in stock anywhere over the past couple of years? I rather fancied some of their horse-drawn stuff as false perspective givers for Ingleford.

 

19 hours ago, The Johnster said:

A ship designed for open sea use, even for coastal traffic, has sufficient freeboard forward to deal with fair size seas, and this is usually big enough for the crew accommodation.  It will rarely be able to 'take the hard'; sea-going ability suggests a keel prominent throughout the ship's length to give her good steerage and course-holding. and this will prevent her sitting upright on the hard.

Yes and no. Even into the '60s many Northern European coasters were built to be able to work the myriad tidal quays and ports, and did so into the 80s reasonably commonly. There were simply more markets for cheap heavy bulk goods than deep water/locked ports, and coasters were the tools used to access them.

 

For me a bridge, a funnel (abaft the bridge, as nature intended), rasied fore- and quarterdecks, and davit-launched boats make for a 'proper little ship', regardless of size. This format could be found for single hatch coasters down to c.95' LoA - though, as so often, normally the smaller the earlier the build date. See posts passim for why pre-Grouping is the best setting for all space starved* model railwayisers!

 

HTH

 

*So that'd be all of us then :)

[The Johnster]

I would suggest ‘early’ railways as an antidote to space problems, meaning roughly Liverpool & Manchester to 1889, the year of the Armagh collision.  Insanely pretty little engines capable of 1st or 2nd radius operation, short 4- or 6-wheeled coaches, even shoter goods stock, common use of space savers like traversers, sector plates, and tuntables at stations, and a surprising amount of what might be regarded as ‘standard’ designs that could be produced with a range of liveries by RTR companies.  

 

Such as Sharpies, Stephenson Long Boilers, Jenny Linds, Burys, Kitsons, and more for locos, and similar outside contractors for carriages, signalling kit, wagons; you could effectively buy a complete full size railway from catalogues, and the Barry Railway for example did exactly that!

 

RTR is moving into this world with Liverpool & Manchester stuff, and I foresee it becoming much more popular.   Especially as it wa common for branch railways to buy secondhand stock from the bigger companies vefore theywere absorbed by them; Rocket  is a classic example, as was Lion’s career as a stationary boiler.  
 

 

Edited May 19 by The Johnster

[Pacific231G]

5 hours ago, Schooner said:

 

The other steam coaster I have my eye on is here:

https://www.mountfleetmodels.co.uk/product/ss-jarrix/

 

 

Launched at Selby (top of the Humber) in 1917, she's a little late for my tastes; but like Talacre could be reasonably and simply backdated whilst being brought up to 1:43 from the kit's native 1:48.

 

 

The Jarrix is a lovely vessel but , at around 168ft, maybe a bit too large for most layouts with a harbour (as opposed to models of docks)  I have seen models of such long raised quarter deck coasters far smaller than that but, for my money, they look unrealistically small as do very short three-island  coasters. 

The best source I've found are Charles Waine's books, particularly Steam Coaster and Short Sea Traders (with R S Fenton) and Coastal Vessels in Detail. but I also have the one on motor coasters and another on tugs. They include plans for a wide range of ships. Going through those one does get an impression of what makes a coaster look like a proper little ship. It's not just the Clyde Puffers that  don't quite make it. 

 

[Schooner]

Ah, but 'only' 144' in 7mm!

 

Sadly I don't have mine with me atm, but I think Steam Coasters and Short Sea Traders includes a chart of quantities of the various hull formats of various lengths? IIRC around 145' was the smallest common length; as c.105' (or was it 95'?) was for the small single hatch coasters. Happy to be corrected on this though :)

 

Re Puffers etc, I think the issue is that specific design criteria/restrictions are really obvious in the context of the average. Puffers make for jarring 'generic small coaster' because they're so closely shaped by their particular working area.

 

From a sailing coaster PoV, it's like trying to sell a Severn Trow or a Goole Billyboy as a 'generic coasting ketch'. They both traded outside their home areas, sure, but boldly wear their origin in almost every aspect of their design and are far too specific to be convincingly used as generic craft. Model the rule, not the exception!

 

Also a quick hat-tip to @The White Rabbit who often has useful contributions in this area.

 

@The Johnster couldn't agree more!

Edited May 20 by Schooner

[The White Rabbit]

1 hour ago, Schooner said:

... Re Puffers etc, I think the issue is that specific design criteria/restrictions are really obvious in the context of the average. Puffers make for jarring 'generic small coaster' because they're so closely shaped by their particular working area.

 

From a sailing coaster PoV, it's like trying to sell a Severn Trow or a Goole Billyboy as a 'generic coasting ketch'. They both traded outside their home areas, sure, but boldly wear their origin in almost every aspect of their design and are far too specific to be convincingly used as generic craft. ....

 

I have a handful of books and pamphlets which describe, discuss and show various 'small craft', sail and steam - it is understandable that to the uninitiated a small sailing boat is a small sailing boat but I completely agree that there are many regional variations/specialisms. In railway terms, it might be a bit like Auntie Connie calling all green tank engines GWR panniers. Or a pre-grouping modeller using models of Friesian cows! 

 

I still have the scratch-aid kit project of one or two small craft (of which a Severn Trow is on the shortlist) to return to - trouble is there's quite a bit going on atm - but I firmly intend to extract digit asap! 

 

As an aside, I was having a look a week/two ago, [valid] comment about availability noted but Artitec also do a 1:87 tug which is a bit smaller than the 'average' coaster and might set the scene for a quayside with less space. 

[Schooner]

1 hour ago, The White Rabbit said:

In railway terms, it might be a bit like Auntie Connie calling all green tank engines GWR panniers. Or a pre-grouping modeller using models of Friesian cows! 

 

I think these are apt analogies, and you're quite right. There is also the availability issue - 1:76 modellers in particular have had it pretty rough till recently, with a choice of Clyde puffer, dubious narrowboat, or scratch building. However, as new kit production changes, and the hobby itself develops*.

 

1 hour ago, The White Rabbit said:

I still have the scratch-aid kit project of one or two small craft (of which a Severn Trow is on the shortlist)

Huzzah! My own scratch Trow is on pause too, as life throws some other (alleged!) priorities my way.

 

*with less attachment to personal memory as motivator, I'm sure we'll see greater diversity, broader research and perhaps wider investment in the modelled world than is perhaps traditional in the hobby.

 

 

In other news, do we collective maritime-minded know of any model of Falmouth station/docks? A quick search has yielded no results, yet...

[The White Rabbit]

1 hour ago, Schooner said:

... In other news, do we collective maritime-minded know of any model of Falmouth station/docks? A quick search has yielded no results, yet...

 

IIRC (!) I think there was a Railway Modeller Plan of the Month (or similar) article about the Falmouth town/docks stations. I've no clue re when though, sorry. 

[Annie]

12 hours ago, The White Rabbit said:

I think there was a Railway Modeller Plan of the Month (or similar) article about the Falmouth town/docks stations.

I had a quick look through the RM on-line index for their digital archive and the only Falmouth Plan of the Month articles are modern error ones.

[Schooner]

Sad face. Might have to have a little think about sorting out that sorry state of affairs...

[Schooner]

PS. 

 

Just found an old mockup of what something along the lines of Jarrix might look like if placed on the 7mm layout:

 

Sometimes bigger might well be better!

[Northroader]

There’s this plan of the docks, (1933) with a siding access from down the side of the old broad gauge terminus:

 

 

The quays further along nearer the town predate the railway, and were used for the “packet” traffic for passengers arriving from abroad. This was on the wane by the time the railway appeared, and the area served by the railway in the plan is more graving docks for ship repair and building, rather than for commercial traffic. This continues til now.

The old station is too far away for the middle of town, and so there’s a halt a bit further back for the town, and the terminus is just a bus stop halt. There’s a passing loop at Penryn, and the track is plain single line to the buffer stops at the Harbour. You’d have problems with making any sort of model away from the original GWR terminus bit, I think.

Edited May 21 by Northroader