Train Heating

[KLee55]

How common was it for a loco without train heating, or train heating compatible with the coaching stock forming the train, to be used on passenger trains during TOPS era?

[rodent279]

1 hour ago, KLee55 said:

How common was it for a loco without train heating, or train heating compatible with the coaching stock forming the train, to be used on passenger trains during TOPS era?

Very, especially during summer, but not unknown during winter either. 

[pheaton]

I can remember childhoods in Paignton on summer weekends...where the stock (useually mk2 aircons) had sat the entire day in the sun in goodrington sidings....stood on the platform waiting for the train back to cheltenham we would see it pull in....and without fail....what was on the front.....a no heat 47....

[rodent279]

Though by then, the inside of the coaches would be anything but no heat.......🥵

[DY444]

20 hours ago, KLee55 said:

How common was it for a loco without train heating, or train heating compatible with the coaching stock forming the train, to be used on passenger trains during TOPS era?

 

19 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Very, especially during summer, but not unknown during winter either. 

 

... and a number of the summer ones were booked workings rather than "this is all we've got" last minute depot chuckouts.  One of the more celebrated being the booked day out to the south coast every summer Saturday for one of Healey Mill's Knottingley based MGR 47s but there were loads of other examples.

Edited July 21, 2022 by DY444

[Tim Hall]

Don't forget the daily use of 2x20s from Derby/ Leicester to Skegness in summers during the mid/ late 80s, and their use on Derby-Llandudno a few summers later.

No heat 47s were certainly common when I was doing various rovers in the mid 80s, as were 45/0s with boilers isolated. 

Even in 2019 it was possible to ride behind a no heat 37 on a service train. 37025 was on hire to ATW for the Cardiff-Rhymney rush hour services when units were in short supply. As I live about 2 miles from Heath High Level, it had to be done!

 

[Tim Hall]

Have a look through this thread:

 

Back in the day... | RailUK Forums (railforums.co.uk)

 

Which for some reason isn't coming up as a link...but it does exist and shows you the extent of no heat workings.

 

[Oldddudders]

Many SR EMUs had the heater fuses removed at some arbitrary date in the Spring, and replaced at some equally arbitrary date in the Autumn. 

[keefer]

I'm sure it was mentioned in the General or Sectional Appendix somewhere that the heating 'season' was September - March.

[Wheatley]

As well as booked summer excursions in the mid to late 80s it was not unknown for locos to haul dead DMUs in service. I have photos of Healey Mills 47s, Tinsley 37s and (if the Kingfisher was anything to go by) a Thornaby 31 hauling dead 101s and 110s around Leeds/Huddersfield/Sheffield during the 1987-89 Great Yorkshire DMU Famine before the Tupperware units took over. There's a thread on here somewhere, they were common in the NE as well. At one point one Sheffield-Leeds via Barnsley service each way was booked to go via Altofts and avoid the Castleford reverse so it could be used to trip demics collected at Sheffield and Barnsley back to Neville Hill in passenger service.

 

On one occasion a noted Huddersfield lunatic by the name of Brian Wiltshire was given a Railfreight 47 to haul a 101 with dead batteries to Sheffield. By the time they'd made up the train they were 15-20 late and Brian was entreated by a young lady via the cab window to "go for it" because she had a job interview in Sheffield. No problem, notch 7 all the way, death or glory boys. It flew past Clayton West Junction so fast that the signlaman there rang me at Penistine to ask me to give him the road over the single line to Barnsley rather than the down man as he was clearly aiming to make up time. I did, and also not only obtained a similar undertaking from Barnsley Station Jcn, but also Sheffield PSB to give him greens all the way. They were 3 late arriving in Sheffield. Our lampman, Jim,  got on at Barnsley to go to Chapletown and got in the back cab as it was full and standing. By the time it reach Chapletown it was still full but no longer standing, Jim reckoned they were doing around 9O through the dip at Wombell with all the standees having sat on the floor while coats and bags rained down on them from the overhead racks. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Wheatley

[The Johnster]

In steam days, the steam heating bags were removed during the summer season, and heat could not be provided by any locomotive.  Can't recall now whether this was done with steam heat diesel or electric locos. 

[KLee55]

Many thanks for your replies.

[keefer]

On 21/07/2022 at 20:32, keefer said:

I'm sure it was mentioned in the General or Sectional Appendix somewhere that the heating 'season' was September - March.

Nearly right, it was more like October to April - found the mention in the 1972 General Appendix:

[KLee55]

How common was it for ETH fitted locos to be used on freight workings?

[Wickham Green too]

Pretty rare - among those classes specifically geared for passenger use ........ BUT .....................................................

[keefer]

Some class 37/4 locos went into freight sectors - presumably not required for passenger work (Provincial, Intercity Mainline etc).

I think the main reason for the suitability was that, ignoring the ETH, the locos were pretty much the same as the 37/5 sub-class i.e. have had the Heavy Refurbishment when they were basically rebuilt.

 

[Rivercider]

1 hour ago, KLee55 said:

How common was it for ETH fitted locos to be used on freight workings?

Well, that depends. Time and place is everything.

 

I worked in the Bristol Area Freight Centre from 1978-85 and ETH locos on freight were relatively rare,

but by no means unknown. Class 50s were fairly regular on a Bristol - Swindon - Drump Lane (Cornwall) freight diagram  around 1977-79. Bristol Bath Road Class 31/4s often appeared on local freight work in the West Of England Division (between Gloucester/Bristol/Westbury/Exeter). The Stoke Gifford to Tytherington stone quarry trips could be covered by any type 4 available at Bath Road, which sometimes included a 47/4, 45/1, or very rarely a 50.

 

cheers

[KLee55]

I had in mind, late 80s and class 37/4s operating into/out of South Wales in particular

[eastwestdivide]

14 hours ago, KLee55 said:

How common was it for ETH fitted locos to be used on freight workings?

Class 33 - not at all rare!

[DY444]

14 hours ago, KLee55 said:

How common was it for ETH fitted locos to be used on freight workings?

 

Kind of depends on the time frame, area and scope of the question.  For instance on the SR it was very common for the simple reason that all the indigenous main line locomotives had eth (except the 3 "Hornby's" when they were still around).  Same on the WCML in the early days when the LMR tried to use electric locomotives wherever possible.  

 

In general for diesels, I would say it was less common in the 1970s than it became later as eth locomotives were in high demand for passenger trains.

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, DY444 said:

Kind of depends on the time frame, area and scope of the question.  For instance on the SR it was very common ......

Indeed - it depends on whether you could consider ANY freight on the Southern to have been 'very common' ( compared to certain rather more industrialised parts of the network ).

[Pandora]

I was not a "Basher", but knew many of them,  is it correct that by the late 1980s, locos were pooled at depots to operate a particular freight traffic, therefore it would rare to bash an Immingham NB 47 on a passenger working. I recall riding a class 20 tour when a 47/3 passed by on passenger train and hearing the  gasp of drawn breath  of the bashers, the bashers would have rather had the 47/3 than their day out behind the 20's

Edited July 28, 2022 by Pandora

[Titan]

15 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Pretty rare - among those classes specifically geared for passenger use ........ BUT .....................................................

 

Almost all diesels with ETH were not geared specifically for passenger use, the only exceptions really being class 55 and class 50. All others were geared for mixed traffic use, which encompasses the vast majority of ETH fitted locos. As the minimum number of locos were converted to ETH to save money, there would not usually be any spare to work freight, normally it would be a mixed traffic geared no heat loco that would be used on passenger to make up the shortfall.

[Wickham Green too]

2 minutes ago, Titan said:

Almost all diesels with ETH were not geared specifically for passenger use, the only exceptions really being class 55 and class 50. All others were geared for mixed traffic ...

Which is PREXACTLY what I was trying to imply with my 'BUT' ..................... though I was also thinking about electrics ( 91s specifically ? ) - I guess there will be a flood of examples, now !!?!

[Titan]

4 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Which is PREXACTLY what I was trying to imply with my 'BUT' ..................... though I was also thinking about electrics ( 91s specifically ? ) - I guess there will be a flood of examples, now !!?!

 

Well even class 55 and class 50 have the same gear ratios as class 37 despite being permitted to run at 100mph, so strictly speaking not specifically passenger geared locos either - even Deltics have a "Goods" setting on the brake changeover switch.  So your flood of examples is basically all ETH fitted locos bar class 91's, so perhaps you should have made that your main point rather than just implying it?