Full Dining Service 1946 to 1960, which trains/ time of day

[DCB]

More a Social history question, but when I were a nipper, we had a fried, greasy Breakfast, first thing,  Cooked (allegedly,) School Dinners at Dinner Time,  Jam Sandwich Tea at Tea time, 2 tinned Peach slices on Sunday at 5pm, and a cup of warm mud before bed.  It did us no harm, why some of us lived to 65 years old.

 

So Trains.  I can see the 8 hour trains off KX and the like 10.30 ish or mid day doing Dinner at 12 and High tea at 4 with a Dining set, thee coaches?  out one day, home the next,

But what about the 4 hour ones, , did the train just do one trip per day, back next day?  Or did it return same day, if so with or with out Dining Car.

Trying to work out which of my 1957 to 1962 era  trains needs full dining facilities and which just a Buffet service.

[The Stationmaster]

Without wishing to stir a social hornets nest it would have been lunch just after 12 - usually two sittings depending on demand.  The last time we had lunch on a GNER train was after my son's graduation at York and it was some time after 13,00 when we got seats for the second sitting after joining at York.  Dinner was, and is on GWR, served in the evening.

 

There was also a difference between Afternoon Tea (he usual fare) and what amounted to High Tea which was served on Pullmans and I doubt was served by more ordinary diners although that's a possibility that I wouldn't entirely rule out.

 

The duration of journey didn't make overmuch difference I don't think - 4 hours would be more than ample for a full lunch service if it was commercially desirable to provide it and even more ample for most breakfast services although on one particular train I knew  it could be dragged out for longer by ordering repeated servings of toast.   But really journey time, provided there was long enough to serve and eat a meal wasn't relevant - the main thing was to offera restaurant car if it was considered viable and if it would be likely to cover more than one service during its working day.  So the best answer is to look at old public timetables for the period and Region you are modelling and suss out which trains had dining facilities. 

[Michael Hodgson]

Your question is demand-related as catering would only be provided if it was viable on a particular service.  Of course a lot of passengers only travelled part of the route and might board or alight at intermediate stations.  They could only sensibly use the catering service it their journey time was long enough for the meal to be ordered, perpared & served and consumed - you're obviously not going to have time for a 3-course meal between Durham and Newcastle.  Many also brought their own food for price reasons.  So the number of passengers for full dining would only be a fraction, and demand would also tend to depend on how many were businessmen on expenses, holidaymakers seeing it a treat (probably route-specific and seasonal), or the classic well-to-do types (probably not so many as pre-war).

 

Carriage workings should be available for particular routes, but this may not be helpful if you are modelling a fictitious location, and of course stock workings need not match staff rosters.  If a train was long distance, staff might work only part of the trip, being relieved at a station such as York before working back on a similar service in the other direction, but that meant there needed to be enough connecting time to avoid late running being propagated between Up and Down.

 

Layover before next working might need to be a bit more generous to allow cleaning/replenishment.  I think it is fair to say that catering vehicles generally achieved much poorer revenue-earning utilisation than ordinary stock. 

 

[Oldddudders]

Dining facility provision varied widely among routes. So the Southern's West of England route typically offered dining on key trains between Waterloo & Exeter Queen St/Central. A dining set would be detached/attached there. Plenty of all-stations trains on the same route might not get any catering at all, demand barely existing. 

 

The Brighton Main Line had hourly non-stop 12-car trains, with Pullman car service in one 6-car, and pantry service in the other, and similar provision was provided to Littlehampton and Eastbourne. The Brighton Belle, usually 10-cars, ran 4 round trips a day, providing Pullman service at all seats, with a non-optional supplement payable on the train. The Victoria - Bognor service provided a buffet car in most trains. The Portsmouth Direct hourly limited-stop service had a restaurant car in a 12-car formation. Principal Kent Coast services had a restaurant car or a Pullman until electrification 1961/2, buffets thereafter.

 

Dining demand changed over time, so by the end of your period demand for main meals was lessening, and buffet-style facilities became more common, I think. But as others have said, many long-distance fast trains continued with full catering long after your period. Dinner on a Euston - Glasgow service was still a pleasure in the '90s!

[bécasse]

2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Principal Kent Coast services had a restaurant car or a Pullman until electrification 1961/2, buffets thereafter.

Probably post-war, and certainly post-nationalisation, catering on ordinary services on the South Eastern Division was limited to buffet cars, some of which (normally on the Hastings line) were Pullmans (styled "Refreshment Car" IIRC) which were themselves eventually painted green after inclusion in BR stock. Many boat trains included a Pullman Car and the Night Ferry conveyed a catering vehicle for WL passengers which could serve breakfast. Pullman trains were limited to the summer only Kentish Belle and the Golden Arrow boat train (which at times conveyed ordinary stock as well), although two Pullman cars were attached to a winter TT train which ran in similar timings to the Kentish Belle and these probably served at-seat meals.

 

On 6-PUL/6-PAN electric services on the Central Division, the Pullman crew provided an at-seat refreshment service into the 1st class compartments of the adjacent ordinary vehicles ("Coffee for you, sir?") and this continued on the short-term 4-PUL sets of the early 60s. The mid-Sussex line had 4-BUF (and the two prototype 4-BEP) sets included in their formations.

[Nearholmer]

Nobody has mentioned the pre-electric Bournemouth trains, which had fairly generous catering provision, although the trip isn’t/wasn’t hugely long, and moving away from the southern, the West Midlands services on WCML similarly seem to have been quite well provided. I had the weird experience of having a proper cooked lunch on a Wolverhampton (I think) train as the sole customer as recently as some time in the late 1970s.

 

Both of these routes I think had a big trade in breakfasts and dinners, and may simply have remained staffed through the middle of the day, making lunch  a marginal cost operation, although I think that perhaps until the early 60s, by which time the place was beginning to change character, there was a significant trade in lunches going to and from Bournemouth because it had a high % leisure, rather than business, clientele.

[Tobbes]

On 01/08/2022 at 13:07, Oldddudders said:

Dining facility provision varied widely among routes. So the Southern's West of England route typically offered dining on key trains between Waterloo & Exeter Queen St/Central. A dining set would be detached/attached there. Plenty of all-stations trains on the same route might not get any catering at all, demand barely existing.

Thanks v much @Oldddudders.

 

Where can I find details for 1960, please?

[bécasse]

Columns headed RC in the Southern Region public timetable for the London-South West England routes (table 35?) almost certainly indicate that the train was booked to convey a Bulleid 2-car restaurant set between Waterloo and Exeter. These were the ex-Tavern car sets and may just have still been so in 1960.

[Mallard60022]

8 hours ago, Tobbes said:

Thanks v much @Oldddudders.

 

Where can I find details for 1960, please?

Yu can ask me if you like!

Phil

[Mallard60022]

On 01/08/2022 at 13:47, DCB said:

More a Social history question, but when I were a nipper, we had a fried, greasy Breakfast, first thing,  Cooked (allegedly,) School Dinners at Dinner Time,  Jam Sandwich Tea at Tea time, 2 tinned Peach slices on Sunday at 5pm, and a cup of warm mud before bed.  It did us no harm, why some of us lived to 65 years old.

 

So Trains.  I can see the 8 hour trains off KX and the like 10.30 ish or mid day doing Dinner at 12 and High tea at 4 with a Dining set, thee coaches?  out one day, home the next,

But what about the 4 hour ones, , did the train just do one trip per day, back next day?  Or did it return same day, if so with or with out Dining Car.

Trying to work out which of my 1957 to 1962 era  trains needs full dining facilities and which just a Buffet service.

For BR ER Dining Services in 1960, then Tony Wright is the person to ask. Wright Writes Thread(s)

Gilbert of Peterborough North, for Summer 1958.

Phil

[Mallard60022]

1 hour ago, bécasse said:

Columns headed RC in the Southern Region public timetable for the London-South West England routes (table 35?) almost certainly indicate that the train was booked to convey a Bulleid 2-car restaurant set between Waterloo and Exeter. These were the ex-Tavern car sets and may just have still been so in 1960.

Several were Tavern Sets and especially on the ACE. Until '62/'63 and maybe even '64 (can't quite remember without looking). There were even Maunsell Sets in '58 and '59; uncertain about '60 without checking.  

Phil

[Carl LaFong]

One of the best web sites for information on dining facilities and other services on long distance trains is 'timetableworld.com'

They have plenty of facsimile British Railways timetables for the period in question and access is free unless you want a printed item.

It's a great website for planning your services accordingly.

 

[JOHNMCDRAGON]

I always found it amusing when I was younger in the sixties that the Clyde Coast trains from St.Enoch had MkI  non corridor  compartment coaches with no toilets for a journey of say an hour and a quarter to Largs  where we often visited.  Whereas if we went to Queen St.  the train to Edinburgh was not only an early DMU with toilets but also had  coffee/tea served  at seat by a waiter in  white jacket for  45 minute journey. It seemed that the prestigiousness of the route/clientele also figured in the authorities minds when it came to on train catering.

[keefer]

The large quantity of legal/financial passengers between Waverley and Queen St. was the main reason that the fast trains were continually upgraded to the newest/fastest stock as well as having 1st class & dining. 

The dining went with the cl.27 push-pulls but by then, the driving factor was competition from coaches on the new M8 motorway.

Edited January 9 by keefer

[TravisM]

When the HST's were first introduced on the Western Region, they were outfitted with both a TRUB (Trailer Restaurant Unclassified Buffet - 40xxx) as well as a TRUK (Trailer Restaurant Unclassified Kitchen - 405xx) to cater for full kitchen service, the TRUK being next to the 1st Class seating.  I'm pretty sure this only lasted a few years before the TRUK's went to the Eastern Region, where they were probably better suited.

[hexagon789]

On 11/01/2024 at 22:52, TravisM said:

When the HST's were first introduced on the Western Region, they were outfitted with both a TRUB (Trailer Restaurant Unclassified Buffet - 40xxx) as well as a TRUK (Trailer Restaurant Unclassified Kitchen - 405xx) to cater for full kitchen service, the TRUK being next to the 1st Class seating.  I'm pretty sure this only lasted a few years before the TRUK's went to the Eastern Region, where they were probably better suited.

It was a TRSB and TRUK. The TRUB came later as essentially a combo TRSB and TRUK in one vehicle.

[Tobbes]

On 08/01/2024 at 12:03, Mallard60022 said:

Several were Tavern Sets and especially on the ACE. Until '62/'63 and maybe even '64 (can't quite remember without looking). There were even Maunsell Sets in '58 and '59; uncertain about '60 without checking.  

Phil

Thanks very much! Sorry for the delayed response, I've been away with work @Mallard60022.

 

This is very helpful - so in the Summer 1960 WTT RCO-RKB seems to mean the (modified) Tavern twin sets (Dia 2665 RCO + Dia 2668 RKB)? I need to go back and work out how many sets were used (& therefore whether some / any were Maunsell RCO-RKB-RSO (Dia 2658 RCO - Dia 2659 RKB - Dia 2005 RSO)?

 

At least with the four Maunsell sets a reasonable appproximation can be made in RTR! Any hints on modelling modifed Tavern sets for those without the skills for the Comet kits gratefully recieved...

Edited January 17 by Tobbes

[tynewydd]

There is a Group dedicated to talking about BR carriage workings (including catering) which has posted many useful files to Google Drive - You can start by subscribing at https://brcoachingstock.groups.io/g/main - the links to the carriage working timetables is at the top of the messages page. 

Prepare to spend a lot of time reading!!