Should we whitewash history on our layouts?

[Erichill16]

I’ve a book on the history of Matchbox kits and there are illustrations that show how the packaging was ‘sanitsed’ as time went on. There is a illustration for an early boxing of their Sdkfz 251 halftrack model and it clearly shows a huge swastika on a red flag draped across the bonnet and  on the later boxing  it’s gone. The illustrations also shows that  attacking planes and gunfire has also been removed.

I can’t remember the timescale but I would imagine it’s about the time that Matchbox kits changed hands.

[SM42]

1 hour ago, petethemole said:

They never did; so they can sell in Germany and anywhere else that might prohibit the emblem.

In my military modelling days I wouldn't do Waffen SS.

 

I'm pretty certain the Stuka I made back in the early 80s did on the tail fin. 

Perhaps they just had different versions for different markets. 

 

There are certain things that wouldn't be acceptable now, but that doesn't deny they happened. We just don't want or need to repeat them. 

 

As I  said before, we are not airbrushing we just don't necessarily need the imagery to portray a scene or set the timescale of our models.

 

We aren't out to give historical lectures on the social climates of the past 

 

A crashed Me109 plants the time scale of a layout in the 40s. 

 

Is it necessary for it to be there to do so? I would say not. 

 

Plenty of other things could do the same.

 

Was it a common sight? Possibly  I wouldn't know

 

Does it cause offence. Probably not, but the usual audience is biased in their view whether they like to admit it or not. 

 

Does it create a talking point, a thing to remember? I would say it does

 

That particular cameo shows a plane that landed under some control and one suspects the pilot survived. The scene has been sugar coated.  

 

Imagine if it had been a badly damaged, burnt out, barely recognisable as an aeroplane except for the tail with its recognisable emblem. (How I suspect quite a few ended up in reality having been abandoned when the pilot baled out)

 

Then, maybe, it might be a less acceptable 

 

Andy

[PMP]

1 hour ago, petethemole said:

They never did;

They did have both box art and swastika transfers included.

 

I think it was around the early to mid 80’s that saw both box art and inclusion of them on the transfer sheet change. Some manufacturers now have the swastika as a two part transfer, that you join to make the whole emblem. Others leave them out entirely. They are available as aftermarket transfers too, for the omission reason.

[Erichill16]

This chap did a large number of paintings that featured on Hasegawa models and as you can see there’s no flames, gunfire etc. 

The chap came over to the UK a number of years ago and brought some of his prints to sell. I got a couple of signed copies.

https://shigeokoike.com/

[andyman7]

6 hours ago, 6990WitherslackHall said:

Interestingly, Airfix don't have swastikas on their German WWII planes models.

 

2 hours ago, petethemole said:

They never did; so they can sell in Germany and anywhere else that might prohibit the emblem.

In my military modelling days I wouldn't do Waffen SS.

 

54 minutes ago, PMP said:

They did have both box art and swastika transfers included.

 

I think it was around the early to mid 80’s that saw both box art and inclusion of them on the transfer sheet change. Some manufacturers now have the swastika as a two part transfer, that you join to make the whole emblem. Others leave them out entirely. They are available as aftermarket transfers too, for the omission reason.

They were omitted originally in the 50s and 60s, but started to be included in kits produced in the 1970s which were aimed more at modellers than kids with 2/- in their hand. Then, from the 80s they were once again removed as inclusion would restrict distribution in certain markets including Germany. There are specialist decal suppliers (just as in model railways) that can address the omission. Personally, I think it important that an accurate model includes them; equally important is the understanding and context of recalling how a totalitarian state branded its hardware with a symbol that had been subverted to represent terror. 

[RJS1977]

My own views on representing tobacco advertising are somewhat contradictory!

 

I have no issue with historic advertising for long-lost pre-War brands such as "Craven A" or "Woodbines". I am not offended by seeing such advertising at heritage railways, nor would I shy from including them on a layout.

 

However I would not put more modern advertising such as Silk Cut, Marlboro, JPS, etc, on a layout. Why? Because these brands were around when I was a child, some of which my grandfather smoked. He retired at 65 and was dead by 70, having spent much of his retirement using an oxygen mask as surgeons removed progressively more of his lungs. So I would not want to portray those brands on a layout. On the other hand, I have no issue with seeing their branding on historic Formula 1 cars etc - but were I a racing driver, I might well have considerable qualms about driving a car with that branding on, or wearing it on my overalls.

 

With regards to Jimmy Saville adverts - I personally do not find these offensive, but I would not put them on an exhibition layout as I would not want to cause distress to any of his victims who may attend a show. (Likewise I would have no personal qualm of listening to a recording of Clement Freud on Just A Minute, but I can also fully appreciate why the BBC will no longer repeat any episodes in which he was featured).

[DavidB-AU]

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

- George Santayana

 

With regards to 19th and early 20th century cigarette advertising, on a scale model you'd be lucky to pick it out in the mass of advertising that was common at the time. Let's say you replicated this 1927 scene exactly in 4mm scale. How prominent would the cigarette ads be?

 

 

On the subject of WW2 models, there was a letter writing debate in RM in the 1980s both for and against wartime layouts. One side saying that it's part of history and offered an unusual variety of traffic, and the other side saying that those years were best forgotten. It's important to remember that many of the letter writers on both sides of the debate had served in the war.

 

I remember similar letters in Model Railroader debating whether pre-civil rights era layouts should depict segregation signs. You could have the same debate about apartheid era South African modelling, or pre-independence India.

 

More recently, there was a magnificent 7mm scale diorama of Bridego Bridge set on 8 August 1963 which was both praised for its detail and accuracy and condemned for its detail and accuracy. The builders explicitly said they were simply recording a piece of history as an education tool.

 

Sometimes you can go too far in whitewashing history, e.g. a model of Hull Paragon (can't remember when it was built) which deliberately left out a a visible legacy of the 1927 accident. The accident occurred in the station throat right next to the Hull Royal Infirmary and a hole was knocked through the wall to carry the injured. The repair used different colour bricks and could be seen from passing trains until the building was demolished in 2011. But the builders concluded that modelling this accurately would be disrespectful to the victims. I would argue that ignoring it was disrespectful.

 

You can remember uncomfortable parts of history and learn from them without glorifying them.

 

Cheers

David

Edited August 16, 2022 by DavidB-AU

[rob D2]

Ultimately , It depends on your level of sensitivity . 

 

If I was to rule out everything that had killed someone i know that'd be references to cigarettes, cars, motorbikes , fire, aircraft , fatty foods . That way madness lies - i won't censor a layout .

 

What the heck do scalelectrix do about cigarette advertising ? surely all the 70s / 80s racing cars were covered in it .

 

 

 

[SM42]

A while back I remember watching a documentary about the swastika and its appropriation by the Nazis. 

 

The presenter was Jewish. 

 

During the film he visited IIRC a Hindu temple  where at the entrance was a huge screen comprising of  swastikas. 

 

His comment was that it made him 

 

This is the key. 

 

Some things have a personal connotation to some.

Many just pass the detail by.  

 

By all means include the warts, but don't expect everyone to see them as beauty spots and in today's era of on line disgust at the slightest provocation don't be surprised if your wart provokes a reaction way beyond what you expect. 

 

Most won't really notice the subtler warts but some will and some warts will stand out like a monstrous carbuncle more than others 

 

Tread carefully is my advice. 

 

Unless you want the hassle

 

Andy

[Reorte]

20 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

What the heck do scalelectrix do about cigarette advertising ? surely all the 70s / 80s racing cars were covered in it

They mostly make modern cars which don't have it. An older one would almost certainly replace the cigarette advertising, although probably keep the overall livery which very often was simply the cigarette brand colours.

 

I think even in the 80s the cigarette brand names weren't on Scalextric cars, although I can't remember for sure.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Reorte

[HonestTom]

45 minutes ago, Reorte said:

They mostly make modern cars which don't have it. An older one would almost certainly replace the cigarette advertising, although probably keep the overall livery which very often was simply the cigarette brand colours.

 

I think even in the 80s the cigarette brand names weren't on Scalextric cars, although I can't remember for sure.

I wonder if you might not also run into the question of copyright if you're using real brands. I know a lot of companies are fine with you putting adverts for their product on your model if you get permission (see also Hornby's many novelty-liveried wagons), but not always. I could see tobacco companies getting worried that putting their adverts on Scalextric edges perilously close to "advertising to children."

[IWCR]

Tobacco  brand  advertising  posters  are  now  illegal.

Yes  commonplace  in  the past  and  a  historic  feature  of  many  railway  stations  and  streetscenes.  The  advice  for  preserved  railways / museums  etc  is  that  advertising  for  currently  available  brands  would  fall under  this  but  that  obsolete  brand  adverts  are  acceptable.  Possibly  the  same  principle  to  use  for  a  publically  displayed  model?.  At  home  do  whatever  you  want.

 

Pete

[Hibelroad]

I’ve followed most of this thread with interest and have to say that censorship was not something I’ve considered before. When building layouts I generally have very little in the way of signage and wouldn’t consider adding something just to make a point or be controversial. I do dislike graffiti and would not put it on a model no matter how authentic that may make it. 
However Alexei Sayle writes in his autobiography about an intriguing message daubed on the approach to Liverpool Lime Street which politely translates as “go away all cockneys”. He claims it lasted for years, occasionally being given a fresh coat of paint by maintenance staff, somehow I cannot see John Holden adding that to his layout.

[Johann Marsbar]

9 minutes ago, IWCR said:

Tobacco  brand  advertising  posters  are  now  illegal.

Yes  commonplace  in  the past  and  a  historic  feature  of  many  railway  stations  and  streetscenes.  The  advice  for  preserved  railways / museums  etc  is  that  advertising  for  currently  available  brands  would  fall under  this  but  that  obsolete  brand  adverts  are  acceptable.  Possibly  the  same  principle  to  use  for  a  publically  displayed  model?.  At  home  do  whatever  you  want.

 

Pete

 

We did check for guidance on that matter when suitable vintage adverts were going to be painted on one of our vehicles.   As the magic word "cigarettes" was absent from the original, only people old enough to remember Wills products of that era would actually know what it's all about!

 

 

[Bernard Lamb]

2 hours ago, rob D2 said:

Ultimately , It depends on your level of sensitivity . 

 

If I was to rule out everything that had killed someone i know that'd be references to cigarettes, cars, motorbikes , fire, aircraft , fatty foods . That way madness lies - i won't censor a layout .

 

What the heck do scalelectrix do about cigarette advertising ? surely all the 70s / 80s racing cars were covered in it .

 

 

 

One of my other interests involves leading historical walks around London.

Last month I lead two walks in Woolwich.

I thought about what to say in my introduction to the arsenal and decided that I should point out that at one time 80k people worked there and the sole purpose of the place was to develop better and more efficient ways of killing people. Going by the comments I did the right thing.

Bernard

[rob D2]

19 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

One of my other interests involves leading historical walks around London.

Last month I lead two walks in Woolwich.

I thought about what to say in my introduction to the arsenal and decided that I should point out that at one time 80k people worked there and the sole purpose of the place was to develop better and more efficient ways of killing people. Going by the comments I did the right thing.

Bernard

Did they just think it was a football club ?! 
The more sensitive need a warning about everything these days 

[Steven B]

The Auschwitz diorama at the IWM and the O Gauge one depicting the aftermath of the Great Train Robbery both did a good job in telling a story. The impact of either would have been less (and in very bad taste) had either functioned.

 

Personally I'm comfortable with historical signs of racism and sexism on layouts, be it a white only queue for a bus or a school with separate boys and girls entrances.  As has been mentioned, we shouldn't be ignoring the bad bits of history, but neither should we celebrate them. I wouldn't have a KKK meeting being depicted on an American layout for example.

 

Period advertising is an interesting question. I'd be more comfortable having a carefully chosen tobacco advert than the "hello boys" ad from 1994 for example. 

 

The lack of non-white skin tones in ready to plonk figures is interesting. British Rail and London Transport have both a long history of employing black, Asian and other minority people (although BR had a recruitment policy that could be considered racist until 1966).

https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/our-views/our-blog/2020-cp/469776545-2020-10-09.html

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/who-we-are/our-history/making-the-connection-2/valuing-diversity/

 

Whilst there are some areas of the UK that are still very much white, I'd argue that layouts depicting places like London, Birmingham or the NW Cotton towns from the 1950s should feature more than just a token non-white face in the crowd. Similarly, those depicting 1939-45 should feature more women in traditional male roles than they often do.

 

Steven B.

[ianLMS]

I see the creation of a model as no different to a creation of a film or tv programme whether it is fictional or a documentary. Many films still include smoking, racism, sexism, discrimination, violence etc  as it may be necessary to add a sense of realism or portray facts, and inclusion of this detail, whether offensive or not is required to convince the audience and it is approved by a censorship board. So, the question i would ask myself is  whether or not the detail being added is really neccessary in order to create the realism or fact you want the audience to be convinced of. Offence intended or not is still offence in the eye of the offended. Therefore, if exhibiting, be conscious of how far you need to go to get your message across. At home, its no problem as long as you understand if the modelling press want to show off your layout, they may edit pics or just not include them if the editorial team felt it might offend any reader. Depicting a bombed out house anytime after 1940 on a layout could upset anyone old enough to remember the blitz, but plenty exist on layouts. Just the same i am sure that anyone from Germany remembering that era may be equally offended at the sight of a  Lancaster bomber, resposible for firebombing Dresden. 

 

If i am modelling London in 1939, i may want to include the evacuation of thousands of children. This probably would invoke memories, some good and some bad. Would it be necessary though, even though its part of our history????

 

Ian

[Andymsa]

At this rate even a plain board of 8x4 chipboard is going to offend someone 😂

[GeoffAlan]

On 14/08/2022 at 21:01, Il Grifone said:

It's very touchy. Personally I would avoid anything controversial, even on my own (private) layout.

German  locomotive 1934-45 models for a long time (still?) had a blob on their tenders!

 

It used to be, and possibly still is, illegal to display the swastika in West Germany and later the reunified Germany. So Airfix had to cut them out of their decal sheets on German WWII aircraft when sold in Germany. German manufacturers of railway models certainly left a blank where the swastika was under the eagle. I have several locos where it is missing. Although I've a couple where it is present!

 

The law was introduced by the occupying powers in 1945 and for what were then totally understandable reasons. 

[HonestTom]

1 hour ago, Steven B said:

 

Personally I'm comfortable with historical signs of racism and sexism on layouts, be it a white only queue for a bus or a school with separate boys and girls entrances.  As has been mentioned, we shouldn't be ignoring the bad bits of history, but neither should we celebrate them. I wouldn't have a KKK meeting being depicted on an American layout for example.

 

Period advertising is an interesting question. I'd be more comfortable having a carefully chosen tobacco advert than the "hello boys" ad from 1994 for example. 

 

 

 

I did encounter an advert in a BR internal publication from I think the 70s on goods handling that depicted an entirely uncensored, entirely naked woman with the caption, "If [our boxes] looked like this, you'd handle them with more care." Don't remember the actual brand, so I guess the advert wasn't as effective as the client hoped, but good golly you could not get away with an advert like that today.

 

34 minutes ago, Andymsa said:

At this rate even a plain board of 8x4 chipboard is going to offend someone 😂

To be fair, I don't think we've come across many instances of people actually being offended here. On the whole, I don't think people are as sensitive as certain sections of the media like to make out. It's more a question of what in theory could be offensive versus what's historically accurate.

Edited August 16, 2022 by HonestTom

[Andymsa]

12 minutes ago, HonestTom said:

I did encounter an advert in a BR internal publication from I think the 70s on goods handling that depicted an entirely uncensored, entirely naked woman with the caption, "If [our boxes] looked like this, you'd handle them with more care." Don't remember the actual brand, so I guess the advert wasn't as effective as the client hoped, but good golly you could not get away with an advert like that today.

 

To be fair, I don't think we've come across many instances of people actually being offended here. On the whole, I don't think people are as sensitive as certain sections of the media like to make out. It's more a question of what in theory could be offensive versus what's historically accurate.

 

it was more a tongue in cheek comment that people get offended at the least thing these days.

[Andymsa]

Something I’m planning to put on my layout is a brothel, I got the idea from miniatur wunderland. But that aside there are a few items around from a bouncing camper van to a toilet door opening with someone on the throne. Then there are the sexy scenes from noch not to mention others. 😀

[Bernard Lamb]

Some years ago there was an art exhibition in Leipzig that featured a work by Gilbert and George. I cannot remember the exact name of the piece but it was something like days of future past. It was basically a very detailed war time diorama from the early 1940s but featuring the living and the dead. As you entered the room you could hear a pin drop. I think it was not a case of people being offended but more a case of them not being previously exposeed to such depictions and thus not knowing how to react. We found it very interesting. I was interested in the art work and SWMBO was more interested in watching the action of the viewers.

Bernard

[The Johnster]

16 hours ago, Steven B said:

 

Whilst there are some areas of the UK that are still very much white, I'd argue that layouts depicting places like London, Birmingham or the NW Cotton towns from the 1950s should feature more than just a token non-white face in the crowd

 

Even earlier if your model includes the less well-off districts around the docks in a big port; East London, Liverpool, and Cardiff had large immigrant communities 'of colour' going back to the turn of the 20th century and beyond (East London has of course been the clearing house for immigrants and refugees for many hundreds of years).  Cardiff had the first mosque in the UK outside London and has always prided itself on it's inclusivity, conveniently ignoring several serious race riots a century or so ago...

 

Modelling a period and area should, IMHO, take account of the social history involved, and I am fortunate in that my choice of period and area, a South Wales mining valley in the 1948-58 period, does not have much in the way of overt racism, football 'ooliganism, sexism, or homophobia to model.  They were all present of course, but not overtly so; I was largely unaware of them.  Rock outcrops on the mountains were often graffiti-ed, but, this being the Valleys, where Celtic misery is a hobby, the usual fare was biblical quotes of the 'Be sure your sins will find you out' sort ('lovely day, mind, innit, we're goin' for a walk up the mountain' in summer was the usual cause of pregnancies and rushed weddings the following spring).  In the 60s, a political 'Free Wales' element appeared, usually appended 'with every 4 gallons' or the W painted out.  'Cymru am Byth' (Wales forever) has been a constant.

 

Immigrants were, notably, Italian cafe and ice cream palour owners and their families, immortalised by the Echo cartoonist Gren's 'Idwal Bracchi'.  These were established pre-war and interned on the Isle of Man during it, not Britain's proudest moment, but I was not aware of any resentment to their customers.  To the British government, certainly, but many of the locals were understandably on board already with that, there was a reason that Treorchy was called Little Moscow!  They're still here, the Fulgonis and Sidolis, thriving and loved, completely assimilated (resistance is futile, go on, 'ave a sundae).  Asian GPs became common in the area in the 60s and 70s, and raised eyebrows but Brit med school graduates were not eager to take on low paying Valleys practices; they were generally good enough at their jobs to be accepted after a while.

 

The Welsh are by and large resistant to change but will accept newcomers so long as they are prepared to join in, so initial problems are usually overcome.  We have our share of full on racists though, and sadly a rabid concentration of them live in the very area I model.  One went to the States back in the 90s and was refused membership by the Klan for being, um. a bit right wing...  They seem to be a product of the 70s an 80s, a response to Asian shopkeepers, prepared to actually serve their remote communties by not shutting at 5(!).  I'm sure the extremism was there, latent, decades before, but lacked a voice and a cause to champion.  I will not allow it a voice on Cwmdimbath, in fact I am horrified that it is allowed a voice at all, wastes of skin they are.  To do so would be to pointlessly highlight something that was not visibly there in my period.

 

There are unpleasant matters to address, though.  Poverty was still rampant, though not to the extent of the Great Depression, pithead baths and concession coal making a big difference to whole communities.  Model figures tend to be based on tall, healthy, well fed, Home Counties types, suited gents and fashionable ladies; very unlikely in traditional South Wales.  Stunted, ill-fed, shabbily dressed, hunched, oppressed, children in ill-fitting patched hand-me-downs either too big or too small for them, barefoot in summer, would be more approrpriate; Modelu are a boon here.  Everybody, children included, chain smoked Woodbines.  Men all wore hats, usually 'Dai caps', homburgs for suited managers, and women all wore scarves, hats being Sunday best, the day the men took the mothballs out of the demob.  Any group of women would have at least one widow in her weeds, a black hat.  There was a disturbing number of birth defects as well, along with some missing limbs, there's just been a war and mining is a dangerous trade, not to the extent you'd have found in Germany at the time, though (I went there in 1966, aged 14, and the amount of disability among men my father's age was noticeable; they'd taken a beating sho 'nuff).

 

The general look, which I've tried to reproduce, was dirty, worn out, and not well cared for, and this extended to streets and buildings, and to an extent the railway as well.  In the cities this was war damage and dust, but in the Valleys it was simply filthy air and neglect.  Houses were all rented and the landlords, if you could find them, didn't care until you missed a payment, paint peeled, coal dust got everywhere, sheep, which also got everywhere, saw off the vegetation, if you could see the mountain it was going to rain, and if you couldn't it was raining.  All the trees had gone for pit props years ago; clay pipe smoking great-aunt Nell (Tonypandy), 104 in 1963, could 'remember when a squirrel could go from Ponty to Blaenrhodda without touching the ground.  'E'd 'ave to do it on the bus now'!  It was miserable, but us Brythonics like a bit of proper misery, and inside the little terraced hovels there was a fire in the stove and the kettle was on, and there were (I remember this from my childhood visits to rellys about a decade after my period) always biscuits and Welsh cakes (bakestones).  'Shonny bach, cariad, ere's fourpence, run down the shop now, innit, and get a bottle of Tizer, there's a love nawr te.  Oh, an' a loaf of Vitbe (wanted to impress the 'rents, Co-op not good enough, see.  Check out Dylan Thomas' short story 'Peaches'*), tell the girl to put it on the slate'.

 

 

*In which the Bard of Cwmdonkin tells of a childhood visit to relatives on a farm in rural Carmarthenshire.  The farm is dairy but has a wonderful orchard, including peaches on a south facing slope that catches the sun, but because the posh Swansea folk are coming, Auntie has bought some tinned peaches and cream from the shop for appearances sake.  But there is no tin opener...  I remember this exact attitude, the faux gentility, the 'front room', kept immaculate but only ever used for laying out the dead, the lace curtains, and hated the waste and oppression of it, still do, but now am also old and wise enough to understand the need to preserve pride and dignity against overwhelming odds…

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by The Johnster