Should we whitewash history on our layouts?

[Johann Marsbar]

7 minutes ago, roythebus1 said:

a friend has a preserved Maidstone Corporation bus. It had robinsons Marmalade adverts on the front, complete with golly. He's taken the decision to remove the golly pics from the adverts in case it causes offence whilst out on the roads. His choice, his bus.

 

That sounds like the one that Maidstone Borough Council retained in their fleet as a historic vehicle and which I hired for a Sunday tour of their bus routes back in 1984....

 

 

I did wonder about its fate after 'Boroline went out of business in the early 1990's !

 

 

[Colin_McLeod]

On 16/08/2022 at 21:34, wombatofludham said:

But by the same token, if I wanted to model Northern Ireland Railways in the 1970s and 1980s, I wouldn't be able to avoid references to that period which to some eyes might be provocative

 

One detail I have not seen modelled is the upward facing headlights to enable British army helicopters to more easily track trains running at night in the border area. Ironically it was only Irish Rail locomotives that had this fitted.

 

Photo from Irish Traction Group Facebook. 039 in CIE black & tan livery and upward facing headlight at Belfast Central.

 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2022 by Colin_McLeod

[PhilH]

Another point has exercised my grey matter on subjects such as this (and one or two others lately)…who is to be the arbiter of what we should keep, remember, glorify, attempt to forget, whatever? 
 

 The internet is full of self entitled people who think their opinion is the right and only one and very often present that opinion as fact (and very loudly too). Does that mean we have to go along with them?  As is manifest in life (and in this forum) someone somewhere will always get upset about something. It’s my opinion that we don’t go along with them, which, for me, includes whitewashing history.

 

I’ve been around long enough to have experienced, and regretfully, taken part in things that would not be tolerated today. Hopefully I’ve learnt from those experiences and actions enough not to want to go there again. I want to remember them, pain  experienced and caused, so I don’t repeat them.

 

For this reason I don’t think history should be whitewashed anywhere. It happened, learn from it.

Edited August 20, 2022 by PhilH

[Nearholmer]

11 minutes ago, PhilH said:

Another point has exercised my grey matter on subjects such as this (and one or others lately)…who is to be the arbiter of what we should, keep, remember, glorify, attempt to forget, whatever? 

Tough one, isn’t it?

 

Historically, it was pretty simple: “our elders and betters” decided for us, in the sense that whatever overt or tacit decisions were made on the topic they were largely made by some invisible combination of The Great and The Good, plus professionals, plus people like newspaper editors/columnists who knew how to lead public opinion by the nose. Even ‘membership’ organisations that had a stake in what our ‘heritage’ should be, such as the NT, didn’t really have mechanisms, let alone the will, to properly consult their members. Only random things like railway preservation can be said to have been genuinely participatory, and they were, in the nicest possible way, truly random in their choices, whim-driven.

 

Now, we have some of the mechanisms available to allow mass participation in the discussions, but we haven’t worked-out how to prevent the discussion tipping-over into a series of massively adversarial culture wars, egged-on by some of the same newspaper editors/columnists and various other professional trouble-makers who use it as the vehicle to further their own interests.

 

The one positive I take out of it is that at least now a greater proportion of people know that arbitration over these things is necessary/inevitable, understand that our ‘culture’ isn’t an immutable thing that exists independent of human agency, and maybe that is the first very tiny step towards a sane dialogue, effective and genuine popular participation. But, I only feel that positive for about twenty minutes a week - you caught me at a good moment!

[BlackFivesMatter]

4 hours ago, PMP said:

It’s utter made up bollox, there’s no truth to it whatsoever.

Bearing in mind the recent BLM protests in the USA and heightened awareness of racial issues you’d think that Winston Link’s museum might have attracted some attention if he were as @The Johnsterhas described him. Why do I say that! Well Roanoke where the museum is based has a white population of 60% and a black population of 30%. Roanoke houses the Harrison Museum of African American Culture.

Anyone remember seeing these images of ‘End Racism Now’ painted on the street? 
 

Now you’d think if your city has a 30% black population, a celebrated museum regarding their culture and history, that someone might have noted that a world famous ‘unrepentant and confirmed racist’ photographer had a museum in their city, and perhaps that wasn’t ‘on message’.

 

Unless of course it was a typically fact free contribution from that forum member. The irony doesn’t escape me that in a discussion about racism etc and the hobby, that there’s a post defaming someone as a racist who wasn’t, and that hasn’t been corrected when challenged on it by three people.

I have asked the moderators to look into an allegation of racism, and who has been asked to substantiate these allegations. I am sure the will do this, if they have not done so already. 

[chris p bacon]

22 minutes ago, BlackFivesMatter said:

I have asked the moderators to look into an allegation of racism, and who has been asked to substantiate these allegations. I am sure the will do this, if they have not done so already. 

Are they going to ask OWL's wife ? 

 

She's probably the only person who could give a true answer.

[Nearholmer]

Just bear in mind how ‘personal stuff’ can affect the credibility of a spouse as a witness.

[johnofwessex]

9 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Just bear in mind how ‘personal stuff’ can affect the credibility of a spouse as a witness.

 

 

My wife and ex wife have rather different views on me.............

[PMP]

2 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

Are they going to ask OWL's wife ? 

 

She's probably the only person who could give a true answer.

They might have access to a medium with a polygraph though. 

[jjb1970]

6 hours ago, PhilH said:

I’ve been around long enough to have experienced, and regretfully, taken part in things that would not be tolerated today. Hopefully I’ve learnt from those experiences and actions enough not to want to go there again. I want to remember them, pain  experienced and caused, so I don’t repeat them.

 

For this reason I don’t think history should be whitewashed anywhere. It happened, learn from it.

 

If people were honest I'd be amazed if anyone could say otherwise about themselves. People do things they regret, and perhaps more fundamentally values change so that what was once normal becomes abnormal, what was once acceptable becomes reprehensible. For the most part I think societal changes have been for the good, people tend to be more tolerant and Britain is a more open society. Not perfect but an awful lot better than it was when I grew up in the 70's and 80's in so many ways. I am not a fan of applying retrospective judgement on those who behaved according to the norms of their time as although behaviours were wrong it should be society rather than individuals who are judged. That may seem a cop out as society is made up of individuals and we all make choices, but it is also true that we all of us adopt certain behaviours because it is instilled by society, by parents, by the education system, reinforced by laws etc. Those who condemn earlier generations should keep in mind that we ourselves will be judged by future generations, and when I look at the response to climate change since the science became pretty clear in the mid-80's, world events over my life time and many other things I suspect the judgement of future generations won't be kind.

[BlackFivesMatter]

11 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

Are they going to ask OWL's wife ? 

 

She's probably the only person who could give a true answer.

Yes she is, but the poster stated that OWL was a racist. The poster. He has been challenged to provide evidence. He has not, unless he has done so to moderators off site. Is it acceptable for a statement against a dead individual be allowed to stand? 

[Bernard Lamb]

17 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

 

In a more muted vein, I would personally be very hesitant about modelling a prototype in the former Soviet bloc  before 1990. But I would think it intolerable to object to someone who was actually there modelling the railways of their youth. (For what it is worth, when interrailing in the mid 80s I consciously avoided the countries beyond the Iron Curtain because I didn't want to bankroll a totalitarian regime - and potential invader - through putting money in to prop up their economy , or be fed a carefully manipulated regime propaganda view)

 

 

 

Those bra adverts were somewhat crass and poor taste in the 90s , and somewhat peripheral too. They are more so now - so why bother? I'd wince and roll my eyes and mutter "why ?"and move on, but I'm certainly not going to make any Official Complaints. Bad taste is regrettable but not a hanging matter.

 

 

The mind boggles.I thought such attitudes had died out in the early 1970s. Fortunately our government took a more pragmatic view and negotiated a diplomatic deal to recognize and accept the GDR and increase trade with the bloc. If they had not done so then I would not be writing this.😃

I model the railways of the GDR as I have fond memories of many trips both on the main lines and on branches that have long gone. I picked 1970 as a base as old and new numbers were in use and some of the older classes were still in service. They had a sense of humor in the east, with various nicknames in use. Blood Blister or Piglet carrier for the small rail buses and Ludmilla for the big Soviet diesels. Hardly an acceptance of government propaganda by the local population. Almost every household had a model railway, even if it only came out for Christmas.   

 

As for bra adverts. I once had to make a display stand for Triumph International.

Bernard

 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

The question of building models of railways that existed in lands governed by “bad regimes” could get quite complicated when it comes to pre-grouping British layouts, given that at the time Britain was an overweening global power, busily appropriating the land and labour of people all over the world, and ever ready to use various forms of oppression, up to and including military force, to maintain control over civilian populations. Even post WW1, and even post WW2, as Britain’s grip on empire loosened, “we” did things which can only be called “committing  atrocities”. Being a subject of The British Empire could be a dangerous business if you had even the tiniest aspiration to self-determination.
 

My personal take on it is that it is possible to represent in model form places that were/are governed by regimes under which we would not wish to live, and the methods and values of which we don’t support or endorse, without in so doing accidentally endorsing or celebrating those things, but it does need a bit of care.

 

I suppose “care” might amount to “whitewashing” or “airbrushing”, but it might simply amount to choosing subjects that don’t bring to the fore, and poke the viewer in the eye with, the iniquities of the regime. 
 

Definitely not a simple subject.
 

Edited August 21, 2022 by Nearholmer

[chris p bacon]

6 hours ago, BlackFivesMatter said:

Yes she is, but the poster stated that OWL was a racist. The poster. He has been challenged to provide evidence. He has not, unless he has done so to moderators off site. Is it acceptable for a statement against a dead individual be allowed to stand? 

 

The modern trend of those who take offence on the behalf of others ...

 

The poster stated an opinion about a dead photographer, he may well be wrong or he may have formed an opinion based on statements read. Who knows whether he's right or wrong ,but reporting him for an allegation of racism....🙄

 

I can think of at least one person I know, who would find your avatar/name offensive for ridiculing a movement that highlights the division he has lived with all his life. He wouldn't report you, but ignore you. 

Edited August 21, 2022 by chris p bacon
typo

[ardbealach]

Among the other items in this topic on the “whitewashing” of layouts we have seen racism and German insignia being discussed at some length, with opinions on whether contentious items of modelling might, or might not, be omitted for the purposes of what has been called political correctness.   Model railways are not places to make political statements. 

 

For me railway modelling is all about modelling reality, and I am never convinced with the end result which has been achieved by those modellers who have created, by skilled modelling, an immaculate perfect little model world described by a previous poster as ‘Miss Marple Country’.   

 

Too many models seem to have engine sheds with neat, clean ballast everywhere, no sign of coal and ash on the ground, nor water leaks from dripping water columns.  Cleanliness was not something I remember back in the days bunking around sheds, with or without a shed permit.   I do accept diesel maintenance depots today are more like operating theatres than the dark gloomy MPDs of years gone by, and many layouts based in recent times reflect this improvement in working conditions.

 

And then there are good yards and their neat ballast, no weeds to be seen anywhere, quite unlike the reality of what those workplaces actually looked like. And as for ex-works locomotives, coaches and goods wagons running everywhere without any weathering…...

 

I know we are all escaping into our safe model worlds, but for me I would rather model the real world  and what it actually looks like, warts and all; with leaking downpipes on buildings, broken down fences and certainly not roads full of shiny road vehicles straight out their showroom boxes with not a speck of road dust on them running on road surfaces with no patches and pothole repairs.  Nor have I seen in my travels the monotone green fields everywhere that abound Miss Marple Country.  

 

So yes I believe there is whitewashing of layouts - but not in a political sense.  I would suggest that a layout set in the period sometime around 2016 would raise too many issues, especially at exhibitions, if there was graffiti on the layout on the topic of Brexit.  However, ‘Down with the Corn Laws’ or ‘Marples must Go!’ would both be acceptable as the background of the slogan has been lost for most in the mists of time.  [Alisdair]

[jjb1970]

On modelling the railways of unpleasant regimes, I'd take that on a case by case basis and it is a personal value decision. Probably the only one I'd be hesitant about would be Germany in the era 1933 - 45, however I must admit to owning a Kato SVT-137 Flying Hamburg unit in violet and cream livery of that era. I make plastic kits of military vehicles and figures in 1/35 and most are from that era, and in the world of plastic kits I do feel a bit uncomfortable with some of the stuff thrown about by militaria enthusiasts which cross a line from being interested in the subject material and recreating it in 1/35 to exulting in the German army and other formations (the so-called 'wheraboo' element).

I am interested in the railways of the People's Republic of China and feel no reason to be ashamed or uncomfortable about that. I have a North Korean locomotive (admittedly it's a DPRK liveried Chinese type) and see nothing wrong with it. Both regimes are offensive to some. When we consider this particular question I think it is worth reflecting on how our own countries are perceived in much of the world. We tend to allow a generosity of interpretation to the actions of our societies and countries we do not extend to others, but people in other parts of the world may see the world very differently. I tend to view these things in terms of railway interest and modelling craft rather than thinking about the politics of the countries concerned.

[Hal Nail]

Not sure how this has got to 12 pages really.

 

It's two simple questions:

• Is it likely to offend anyone?
• Do you care?

If both yes, dont do it!

 

[rob D2]

22 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

Not sure how this has got to 12 pages really.

 

It's two simple questions:

• Is it likely to offend anyone?
• Do you care?

If both yes, dont do it!

 

You've hit the Hal nail on the head mate !