Should we whitewash history on our layouts?

[009 micro modeller]

14 minutes ago, woodyfox said:

Looking at the Modelling industry...  A quick search reveals 'flesh' colours on offer to be a pinkish colour of various hues. A search of ready to plant people in various scales reveals few if any depicted in any flesh tone other than pinky/yellow... 

When i was on BR in the 80s many of my colleagues and passengers didn't have this type of skin tone.

The industry really needs to address this issue before we worry about ommitting or including historical facts. 

See also this thread: https://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/117313.aspx

[Reorte]

2 hours ago, John M Upton said:

 

I was initially reluctant to include period posters on my early 1980's work because of the Jimmy Saville appearing on them but as it was in N and they were so small, you couldn't see him anyway. 

 

One thing I will not have under any circumstances on any layout I do though is graffiti, I despise graffiti vandals (please can the media stop calling them 'artists', they are criminals causing deliberate and illegal damage, plain and simple) and the idiotic cretins who spray their pointless scribblings here, there and everywhere are often putting their own worthless lives and the lives of innocent people at risk in order to do so.

 

Find them, nick them, lock them up and throw away the key, all of them!!!

I feel the same way about them, but would I model it? An interesting question, one I've not given much thought to since it's not a big part of the scene I'm more interested in. I think I'd feel the model's annoyingly inaccurate without it, and carrying an unpleasant aspect that I'd prefer not to see with it. Seeing it at an exhibition? Funnily enough I'd be rather more open to graffiti there, in the same way as I appreciate any good modelling of prototypes that don't do much for me.  I've come away from an exhibition thinking that the best layout there is of something  that I've no interest in, or even dislike, in real life.

 

As others have said for your own layout, at home, there's no right or wrong beyond Rule 1.

[Michael Hodgson]

I suppose you could say that I choose to model the railways as I would like them to have been, a shortbread tin view of the country rather than the Glaswegian slums.  I mostly overlook the filthy condition of locos and rolling stock, the environment generally, & the poverty.

 

But I don't see any problem in depicting historical practices honestly in an historic setting.  To my mind it is an insult to those who suffered racism in the past to pretend that it didn't happen.  As posting racist slogans on the wall today would be offensive, I would consider it inappropriate on a layout modelling the current scene.  Even though there is probably sill some unacceptable graffiti today, which would make it accurate to model, the authorities today would (I hope) do something about getting offensive items removed, whereas in the 1950s they perhaps wouldn't.

 

Is it sexist to model a "Ladies only" compartment in a carriage?  There were always official signs supporting contemporary standards - it would be inaccurate to model a period South African train or bus without including such parts of its livery

 

 

I also draw a distinction between things intended maliciously as part of racism (such an Klan meetings and lynchings) and things which would now be seen as patronising but were never meant offensively.   Jam manufacturers do not go out of their way to insult any sector of the market - that would be bad for business. The Robertsons golliwog was essentially a friendly idea - trying to capitalise on a common children's cuddly toy although with hindsight they no doubt regretted not having chosen a teddy bear instead.  When that logo was introduced it was rather like the presentation of geography when I was at school, a subject I didn't do to O level. 

 

I gather the syllabus has moved on since I left school, but I was taught all these places that are/were pink on the map were populated by "natives" who had benefitted from the enlightened culture our missionaries had so generously brought to them.  They had been poor uneducated savages practising voodoo and similar unholy superstitions until we enlightened them by converting them to a righteous Christian religion. The coconuts, copper, tea and bananas we imported were mentioned, but not the working conditions of plantation workers nor the manner in which we had conquered them in the first place.  The fact that most of these countries had new names and our pink map was increasingly obsolete was because post-war independence was analogous to children growing up and leading their own lives.

 

As for the third reich, they did at least have smarter uniforms than our side!   But in Germany it is unlawful to exhibit nazi symbols, so I believe a period model with flags and swastikas however accurate, would be unacceptable over there today.

Whilst that law reflects the modern state's perfectly proper desire to prevent any resurgence of the political factions like that which brought Hitler to power, banning images of the past could also be viewed as akin to holocaust denial. 

[PaulRhB]

The crux is if you choose to include references to historical events, practices or figures then you should already have a reasonable argument for doing so. It may be intended to be provocative, in which case is a family show really the place to do it or would a more focused event on that theme be a more appropriate place to show it? 
 

Ventnor West was at Railwells this weekend, it displays a realistic collection of military vehicles although I’m not sure the Sherman and Churchill tanks would have been stationed there? 
it also features this,

It carries a Swastika and shows compassion as the injured pilot is being taken for medical help. Now what do we read into this? Is this glorifying the downing, displaying contentious images or showing the compassion in the heat of war? There was no info board attached. 
To me it was a more feasible cameo than the tanks, on my admittedly limited knowledge of tanks on the island, but what was it saying? I just took it as a well modelled cameo showing there could be compassion for an injured enemy in that time. I’ve read many accounts of prisoners being treated extremely well on both sides as well as the atrocities committed to others. Not everyone has that context in their head so should it include more? 
When I was in the IWM and a father was telling his child a V2 was probably a space rocket, as the info board was over twenty foot away and not obviously linked, I did point out where the info was to read about it as it was actually a different kind of rocket. I left the choice on what was appropriate to tell a very young child to the father. 

One current slow project is to model the Darjeeling Himalayan Rly and I’m struggling to find suitably dressed figures let alone colour tones of skin. I have amassed a good collection of photos so will modify and repaint figures to show a realistic representation of the community, do I also make sure to be inclusive and put in a few UK and Japanese tourists as diligently researched? The railway itself is a product of Colonialism so is modelling it in modern times in need of context to tell that story or is it just a model of Indian railways? It wouldn’t still exist without the people who’ve made it their own and their choice is to keep it as a world heritage protected railway so they look at it as a thing to be treasured not decried for its origin. 

 

[rob D2]

It depends whether you model fantasy or reality .

 

If I wanted to model a particular BR station in the 80s that had a jimmy saville style advert - I’d model it if I was after complete realism - my layout is not a commentary on rights/ wrongs, it’s not a statement of my views - if it’s going to be accurate it’s a snapshot of warts and all.

[Kris]

1 hour ago, PaulRhB said:

 

It carries a Swastika and shows compassion as the injured pilot is being taken for medical help. Now what do we read into this? Is this glorifying the downing, displaying contentious images or showing the compassion in the heat of war? There was no info board attached. 

I would say that this scene simply adds context to the rest of the layout. The majority of the visitors to the show would have recognised this context, alleviating the need for any extra interpretation. The use of the swastika on the aircraft would be expected and historically accurate - missing it out is likely to have brought more comment. 

[fulton]

2 hours ago, woodyfox said:

Looking at the Modelling industry...  A quick search reveals 'flesh' colours on offer to be a pinkish colour of various hues. A search of ready to plant people in various scales reveals few if any depicted in any flesh tone other than pinky/yellow... 

When i was on BR in the 80s many of my colleagues and passengers didn't have this type of skin tone.

The industry really needs to address this issue before we worry about ommitting or including historical facts. 

Ammo Mig do a flesh colour pack which  covers the full range of skin colours.

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, Kris said:

The majority of the visitors to the show would have recognised this context, alleviating the need for any extra interpretation.

Yep, That’s really my point, it was a model show and we aren’t there to educate or provide discussion points like a museum or attraction. Like I said I just took it as a well modelled scene, hence I took a photo before this discussion started, but where does this approach the line of the re-enactors in ss uniform? While the majority will just accept it like we do some might question vocally why. The only thing that I questioned was the main battle tanks at that location! 😉 

[Neil]

21 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

... Other things are more clearly 'off limits' - no one modelling the southern USA would be crass enough to model burning crosses and lynched negroes dangling from trees - I hope!! Quite how racism in the Mid-West (my area of interest although I've never been there) would be depicted on a model layout anyway, I don't know? ....

 

For a US layout I think it might be possible to depict those less graphic, less overt results of racism. I'm thinking of those who had to ride at the back of the bus or the areas of shoddy housing that were primarily the preserve of African Americans. None of these things are as they should be but they would reflect a time and place. Many historians are keen that we don't airbrush out the wrongs of the past but we also need to bear in mind that we don't want to inadvertently lend approval to the way things were and in some cases still are.

[6990WitherslackHall]

1 hour ago, Kris said:

The use of the swastika on the aircraft would be expected and historically accurate - missing it out is likely to have brought more comment. 

Interestingly, Airfix don't have swastikas on their German WWII planes models.

[6990WitherslackHall]

What intrigues me is that the people that Bachmann Scenecraft produces for OO and N are mostly white.

Edited August 15, 2022 by 6990WitherslackHall

[Chrisr40]

16 minutes ago, 6990WitherslackHall said:

What intrigues me is that the people that Bachmann Scenecraft produces for OO and N are mostly white.

Perhaps it's based on proportional representation rather than an overt attempt to upset anyone. 80% of UK population is white.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Chrisr40

[Andymsa]

I’m really trying to find the right words for this post, there have been many rights and wrongs in history and we all have our views to historic events. Modelling is just that, nothing more or less and if a historical model is being done it should be warts and all and that model be appreciated for the skill put into it and not to read our moral views into it.

[Rivercider]

2 hours ago, Kris said:

I would say that this scene simply adds context to the rest of the layout. The majority of the visitors to the show would have recognised this context, alleviating the need for any extra interpretation. The use of the swastika on the aircraft would be expected and historically accurate - missing it out is likely to have brought more comment. 

Interestingly when I was looking at Ventnor West at Railwells on Saturday I caught the back half of a conversation about this scene between child and an adult. The adult replying that although the pilot was the enemy he would still be looked after properly.

 

cheers

[H2O]

11 hours ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

On a similar subject ..............................

 

For Twickenham MRC's 50th anniversary exhibition in 2011, I made a typical 1961 layout. 

 

It was Tri-ang TT and was a typical 'kitchen table' layout. It featured such things as a May 1961 Railway modeller (the month the club was formed), an old fashioned tea cup with a half eaten digestive biscuit and graph paper, pencil and protractor with track plans.

 

 

It was well received, but on the only other time it was displayed I was confronted by an angry visitor who asked/demanded that I remove the (fake) cigarette from the ash tray as it would encourage his 3 year old son, who was in his arms, to take up smoking.

 

 

Bit OT, but I wonder what his reaction would be to those outrageous 'chocolate cigarette' sweets widely sold in the 70's. These directly targeted smoking at young children - a small sign of how things have changed for the better in the UK within living memory.

Edited August 15, 2022 by H2O

[Alex TM]

Hi,

 

A very interesting and topical conversation.  I live in Edinburgh where a Fringe show has been cancelled by the venue because of it 'unacceptable' content.

 

Skin Tones:

Vallejo also do a wide range of skin tones in both their Model Color and Game Color ranges.

 

Humbrol also do/did a 'dark skin tone' as a base colour.

 

As a former military modeller and wargamer you also learned quickly that skin tone colours are for base coats and highlighting/drybrushing only.  They are not for blanket coating notionally 'finished' figures.

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[PhilH]

28 minutes ago, H2O said:

Bit OT, but I wonder what his reaction would be to those outrageous 'chocolate cigarette' sweets widely sold in the 70's. These directly targeted smoking at young children - a small sign of how things have changed for the better in the UK within living memory.

Would it be a fair point of view that in some cases things change for the better because we don’t airbrush history?
 

Perhaps we do sometimes learn from it.

Edited August 15, 2022 by PhilH

[Chrisr40]

In a 1948 speech to the House of Commons, Churchill paraphrased Santayana when he said 'Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it. 

[HonestTom]

2 hours ago, Kris said:

I would say that this scene simply adds context to the rest of the layout. The majority of the visitors to the show would have recognised this context, alleviating the need for any extra interpretation. The use of the swastika on the aircraft would be expected and historically accurate - missing it out is likely to have brought more comment. 

I think also that it’s a question of tastefulness. Is this likely to cause offence? Well, it’s not like it’s glorifying the war or the Nazis. The pilot is injured, but he’s not in gory bits all over the place. There are people who seemingly get offended for the sake of it, but those people aside, I don’t think anyone would get too upset about this.

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, 6990WitherslackHall said:

What intrigues me is that the people that Bachmann Scenecraft produces for OO and N are mostly white.

No demand ?

 

Whilst I believe there is minimal racism amongst railway modellers, I think the attendance at model railway shows, their exhibitors and the club membership does not accurately reflect the population as a whole in terms of the proportion minority ethnic groups. 

 

Even more conspicuous by their scarcity among modellers are the ladies, although they do appear in reasonable numbers among the little plastic figures produced by the trade, albeit with perhaps a disproportionate tendency towards the indecently posed or insufficency of attire.

[SM42]

6 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I suppose you could say that I choose to model the railways as I would like them to have been, a shortbread tin view of the country rather than the Glaswegian slums.  I mostly overlook the filthy condition of locos and rolling stock, the environment generally, & the poverty.

 

But I don't see any problem in depicting historical practices honestly in an historic setting.  To my mind it is an insult to those who suffered racism in the past to pretend that it didn't happen.  As posting racist slogans on the wall today would be offensive, I would consider it inappropriate on a layout modelling the current scene.  Even though there is probably sill some unacceptable graffiti today, which would make it accurate to model, the authorities today would (I hope) do something about getting offensive items removed, whereas in the 1950s they perhaps wouldn't.

 

Is it sexist to model a "Ladies only" compartment in a carriage?  There were always official signs supporting contemporary standards - it would be inaccurate to model a period South African train or bus without including such parts of its livery

 

 

IBut in Germany it is unlawful to exhibit nazi symbols, so I believe a period model with flags and swastikas however accurate, would be unacceptable over there today.

Whilst that law reflects the modern state's perfectly proper desire to prevent any resurgence of the political factions like that which brought Hitler to power, banning images of the past could also be viewed as akin to holocaust denial. 

 

My understanding that displays of symbols associated with that regime are illegal  but are allowed in the correct historical context. 

 

So for instance salutes and swastikas would be allowed in an WW2  drama on TV  but not in  the street, say, just for the sake of it. 

 

 

Andy

[stewartingram]

Perhaps surprising to those who haven't seen it, but Upminster Bridge on the Dstrict Line has had a Swastika in the ticket hall for many years....

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=upminster+bridge+swastika&qpvt=upminster+bridge+swastika&form=IQFRML&first=1&tsc=ImageHoverTitle

[Andymsa]

1 minute ago, stewartingram said:

Perhaps surprising to those who haven't seen it, but Upminster Bridge on the Dstrict Line has had a Swastika in the ticket hall for many years....

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=upminster+bridge+swastika&qpvt=upminster+bridge+swastika&form=IQFRML&first=1&tsc=ImageHoverTitle

The swastika image on the floor at Upminster Bridge is an Indian religion sign, can’t remember off hand which Indian religion it comes from. 

[AyJay]

What an interesting and thought provoking question.  Thank you for asking it.

I see that there is a strong element in support, so not much that I can add really.

Don't change history, depict it as it was and if that happens to be an uncomfortable subject, then acknowledge it in the form of a statement, if it happens to be for public display.

I felt very uncomfortable with the images on TV showing the statue of Edward Colston being rolled into Bristol docks.

Make a stand against slavery, yes. Remove the statue and put it in a museum depicting the history of Bristol, so that future generations may understand what a bad thing slavery was, again yes.

But toss the statue in the water, that's just trying to wipe out the past.

Taking an extreme case; if you wanted to model the 'reception' sidings at Auschwitz for an exhibition, then go ahead and do it faithful to the truth.  Just add a collection bucket for a suitable needy cause.

[petethemole]

3 hours ago, 6990WitherslackHall said:

Interestingly, Airfix don't have swastikas on their German WWII planes models.

They never did; so they can sell in Germany and anywhere else that might prohibit the emblem.

In my military modelling days I wouldn't do Waffen SS.