RMweb Premium keefer Posted February 3, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 3, 2023 Diagram (AC217) for the Mk2d FO>TSO conversion (58 seats) The white seat backs of the single rows are visible in the 4th and 5th windows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisH-UK Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 On 01/02/2023 at 14:44, USRailFan said: Video from Watford Junction in summer 1991 seems to show two (presumably northbound) night trains: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXC7aF-zm8Y&t=602s The first one is at around 4:15, hauled by a Class 87 and has a pretty weird formation of 2 Motorail GUVs, 3 SLE/SLEP, 1 TSO, 2 BSO with the van areas facing each other, 2 TSO. Strangely large amount of seating cars for a night train of that era, possibly a transfer of extra stock (with the 1 TSO and BSO being the "standard" seating?). Possibly the Fort Bill train? Or possibly some charter service (but would they have had Motorail)? The second one is at around 10:25, hauled by a Class 90 with a formation that looks like 4 Motorail GUVs, 6 SLE/SLEP, 1 RLO, 3 SLE/SLEP, TSO, BSO. Probably the Euston - Glasgow or possibly Euston - Edinburgh sleeper? Yep it's the Fort William which also conveyed seated accommodation to Edinburgh (because who wouldn't want to be kicked off a train in Edinburgh at 4:15) The train to Edinburgh was sleeping accommodation only at that time. The next sleeper in the timetable was the Inverness which conveyed motorail and seated accomm that was usually a BSO and TSO, at that time the Glasgow train was not a Motorail service and seated coaches on the Aberdeen train were usually 2 x 62xx TSOs and a BG 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USRailFan Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 Nice info CrisH. I think there was also a separate sleeper to Carlisle at this point? The Poole - Glasgow likely ran merged with the Plymouth - Birmingham - Edinburgh - Glasgow sleeper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USRailFan Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 On 29/01/2023 at 23:48, keefer said: The Sleepers are (unusually) all SLEP (two opaque windows [toilet and attendant's compartment] and 12 berths) - i think the norm was 1 SLEP to 1 or 2 SLE (1 opaque toilet window and 13 berths) Actually, it seems, once again based on the 1992 "Locomotives & Coaching Stock", that all the Sleepers assigned to the Western Region were SLEPs only. Same goes for those assigned to Cross Country. Meaning that both the Night Riviera and the Plymouth - Edinburgh - Glasgow sleepers would've only had SLEPs at this point... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted February 19, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 19, 2023 On 22/08/2022 at 21:34, GordonC said: Was the Glasgow to Plymouth sleeper still running in the early 1990s? I'm not sure when it stopped but would have expected it to be before then The Glasgow - Plymouth sleeper ran until 1994. The original pan was to cease ALL sleeper trains at that point as they were heavy loss making and HM Treasury (1) didn't want to subside them plus (2) it was thought it would make any franchise containing them unattractive to private sector bidders. The Scottish and South West services to the capital were given a reprieve due to strenuous lobbying by MPs for the affected areas who felt strongly about maintaining the ability to arrive in LONDON early in the morning. Said MPs were much less bothered about the need to arrive in Glasgow or Plymouth first thing so the political pressure to retain what amounted to a 'Cross Country' sleeper service simply wasn't there. As things stand the Night Rivera's long term future is still uncertain - at some stage its going to need new rolling stock and the costs of procuring that are going to be so high that HM Treasury will surely do their best to kill it instead (as they already have done several times since privatisation. The Caledonian sleepers future prospects are much better however - not only has it received new rolling stock recently but he politics of Scottish Devolution ensures it has a powerful backer only too willing to stick two fingers up to what Westminster mandarins may want. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USRailFan Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 9 hours ago, phil-b259 said: The Glasgow - Plymouth sleeper ran until 1994. The original pan was to cease ALL sleeper trains at that point as they were heavy loss making and HM Treasury (1) didn't want to subside them plus (2) it was thought it would make any franchise containing them unattractive to private sector bidders. Weren't the Nightstar still supposed to be a thing at this point? AFAIK it wasn't (officially) cancelled until after privatisation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted February 20, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 20, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, USRailFan said: Weren't the Nightstar still supposed to be a thing at this point? AFAIK it wasn't (officially) cancelled until after privatisation? Yes it was BUT you need to appreciate a fundamental difference between domestic and international operations as far as HM Treasury was concerned. The part of British Rail which had been set up to administer intentional passenger rail services (European passenger Services) was scheduled to be fully privatised (as per British Airways many years before) with zero state involvement / subsidy in its operations (as per Conservative party policy which forbids any national or local Government support / subsidy for international transport believing such provision should be completely left to the power of the free market*) Thus it didn't matter whether Nightstar went ahead ort not - it wouldn't requiring ongoing taxpayer support and as such decisions over its future were to be strictly a matter for its new private owners and as such the Government had no issues with the Nightsar project still being listed as happening. The situation with the domestic British rail sleepers was very different - if they were retained it was realised they would need a continual subsidy from HM Treasury as per other franchised rail operators plus it was felt that their existence would be seen as a disincentive for firms to bid for the new franchises as they represented an 'inefficient use of resources' etc. Hence the Treasury was determined to try and get them all shut down before the shadow franchises were put in place in 1995 ready to be sold off over the subsequent 18months and instructed BR to do so. As I said earlier MPS from Scotland and the south west lobbied successfully to ensure the Treasury's desires were thwarted with regards to services emanating form London (albut with the Scottish sleepers moving from the InterCity West Coast business unit over to Scotrail) - but at the price of agreeing to the end of the SW - Scotland sleeper. * Unlike France - the only reason the Newhaven to Dieppe ferry still runs is because the local authorities around Dieppe pump huge sums of French tax payers cash into the link every year - recognising (unlike the Conservatives) that state subsidy on international links can be hugely beneficial on a local level Edited February 20, 2023 by phil-b259 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USRailFan Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 AFAIK Nightstar was supposed to go to much of the same destinations as the regular domestic night trains, isn't it a large chance that if Nightstar had actually been established, and been reasonably successful, it'd have killed off the domestic night trains anyway? Or were they to be banned for domestic travellers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold JohnR Posted February 20, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 20, 2023 11 hours ago, phil-b259 said: The Caledonian sleepers future prospects are much better however - not only has it received new rolling stock recently but he politics of Scottish Devolution ensures it has a powerful backer only too willing to stick two fingers up to what Westminster mandarins may want. The UK Government provided £50m towards the cost of the new rolling stock for the Caledonian Sleeper. This was then matched by the Scvottish Government. https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13054885.caledonian-sleeper-upgrade-outlined/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USRailFan Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 Wouldn't it technically be possible to order a couple similar (but shorter) sets for the Night Riviera? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 22 minutes ago, USRailFan said: Wouldn't it technically be possible to order a couple similar (but shorter) sets for the Night Riviera? It all depends who's paying for them I suppose... But the fleet was refurbished back in 2018 so I'm not sure if it will get replaced anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 Tis a pity they cannot rewire the Night Riveria stock and stick some class 43s on it - would ease shunting at Paddington. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted February 20, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 20, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, JohnR said: The UK Government provided £50m towards the cost of the new rolling stock for the Caledonian Sleeper. This was then matched by the Scvottish Government. https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13054885.caledonian-sleeper-upgrade-outlined/ They did - but the point is that back in 1994 (when the Glasgow - Plymouth sleeper and the last vestiges of the motorail services were stopped) HM Treasury regarded sleeper services as a thundering nuisance and wanted to kill them. There was also no such thing as a 'Scottish Government' back then either! As I said its only because MPs successfully lobbied the Government in the run up to privatisation to make sure they were retained which ensured that the service was actually still there to receive the HM treasury contribution over two decades later! Edited February 20, 2023 by phil-b259 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted February 20, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 20, 2023 3 hours ago, frobisher said: It all depends who's paying for them I suppose... But the fleet was refurbished back in 2018 so I'm not sure if it will get replaced anytime soon. In one sense, because the sleepers only do one run a day the stock itself is subject to low levels of wear and tear. On the other hand things like steel corrosion will still happen at the same rate regardless whether the vehicle passes through coastal air once a day or 100 times a day. The RAIB have made it clear in their report into the Stonehaven derailment that they think Mk3s are generally coming towards the end of their service life so even if its not on the agenda yet - at some point over the next couple of decades new stock will be required Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium nightstar.train Posted February 20, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 20, 2023 8 hours ago, USRailFan said: Wouldn't it technically be possible to order a couple similar (but shorter) sets for the Night Riviera? No reason I know of that means they couldn't. The stock should be compatible. However the sensible time to have done that was when the line was up and running for the Scottish order. The costs to restart production for an order of what would probably be only 20 vehicles*, would be absolutely enormous. Another problem is that the Scottish sleeper order didn't include a TSO vehicle, so you'd either need to adapt a sleeper vehicle or use one of the Mk5a designs for TPE. The Mk5 sleepers and the Mk5a are subtly different so might need substantial rework to work together. Plus the cost of maintaining such a small fleet. Maybe they could be based at Wembley with the Scottish sleepers and receive maintenance there, although I believe the main maintenance base is Polmadie. Sad as it will be I think the GWR sleeper will stop when the stock wears out. 13 hours ago, USRailFan said: AFAIK Nightstar was supposed to go to much of the same destinations as the regular domestic night trains, isn't it a large chance that if Nightstar had actually been established, and been reasonably successful, it'd have killed off the domestic night trains anyway? Or were they to be banned for domestic travellers? The Nightstar would only be international, domestic travellers would be forbidden. Due to the fact that we're not in the Schengen area and thus there are passport and customs to go through. Cross border trains in Europe can be used for domestic travellers, but anything going Uk-Europe or vice-versa has to be strictly separated. * Current train formation is BSO, TSO, RLO, 4 x SLE/SLEP sometimes 5 in summer. So you'd need 3 of each of the BSO, TSO and RL to provide a spare, and say 11 sleepers to provide summer capacity and spares. That matches the current fleet which is only 20 vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USRailFan Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 RLO? Doesn't the Night Riviera run with all Mk3 stock now, including the Mk3b (ex-)BFOs? So they'd likely be RFMs or similar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium nightstar.train Posted February 21, 2023 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 21, 2023 4 hours ago, USRailFan said: RLO? Doesn't the Night Riviera run with all Mk3 stock now, including the Mk3b (ex-)BFOs? So they'd likely be RFMs or similar? It is all Mk3s. They were refurbished in about 2018 and the RFM converted into a lounge car. I think they are still classed as RFM though. They do have substantially different window arrangements to the RFM as built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USRailFan Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 (Did the Night Riviera even have RLOs in the "Mk2" era? AFAIK they were, at least initially, all meant for the Anglo-Scottish Sleepers) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USRailFan Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 Can anyone make out what the last car is here: It's obviously a Mk2d BFK and then presumably a TSO, but is it a second SLEP at the rear, or another TSO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PerthBox Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 20 minutes ago, USRailFan said: Can anyone make out what the last car is here: It's obviously a Mk2d BFK and then presumably a TSO, but is it a second SLEP at the rear, or another TSO? It's a SLE or SLEP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USRailFan Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 Flickr claims Edinburgh to Penzance sleeper although I'd suppose it's rather the Cross Country Sleeper, in September 91. Looks like a BG, 4 SLEPs and then an unknown number of Mk2s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USRailFan Posted July 24, 2023 Share Posted July 24, 2023 Euston - Glasgow Central sleeper at Carlisle in July 91: Looks like three or four GUVs up front, then two BGs? Then at least one seater (the blue/grey one)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Pilotman Posted July 25, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 25, 2023 Looks like 2 GUVs then 5 BGs to me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USRailFan Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 What would all those BGs be for though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 2 GUV, 2 BG. seater, 2 BG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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