The Areas of Railfreight / Early Trainload era.

[18B]

Hi, my local area in the late 1980s came under East Midlands Freight, I understand that there was a "South Yorkshire Freight"?, and I think.... Humberside Freight??? Would anyone be able to please to add the missing areas for the whole of the UK?  TIA

[GordonC]

I didn't think the areas were broken down as detailed as that, I thought there was Loadhaul (North-East), Transrail (Scotland, West and South West) and Mainline Freight (South East) but that would have been after the Trainload Freight sectorisation era.

 

or were you meaning pool codes for specific depots? there would have been a lot of them

[Hippel]

The areas you refer to (East Midlands Freight) etc. were still under British Rail before TLF etc. I was at East Midlands Passenger and we were reorganised into shadow TOCs before privatisation itself.

 

Paul

[Mark Saunders]

Loadhaul, Transrail and Mainline were the three shadow companies created to be privatised along with Freightliner.

 

prior to this sectorisation split passenger operations from freight and the were further split by area and traffics for accountancy purposes!

 

The first split was Inter City and Provincial! 
 

Network South East, Inter City and Regional Railways came into existence. Each of these were further subdivided such as Inter City East Coast and Regional Railways North East. Each being the basis for a franchise.

 

 

[SED Freightman]

Prior to the creation of the shadow freight companies (Mainline, Loadhaul and Transrail), Trainload Freight had three area managers covering the South of England based at Friars Bridge Court near Waterloo (initially at the Network Technical Centre, Croydon), Stratford LIFT and Westbury.  When the shadow freight companies were set up RfD took its operations in house and set up its own area managers covering the north and south of the country, based at Euston and Saltley.

[Covkid]

1 hour ago, Mark Saunders said:

Loadhaul, Transrail and Mainline were the three shadow companies created to be privatised along with Freightliner.

 

prior to this sectorisation split passenger operations from freight and the were further split by area and traffics for accountancy purposes!

 

The first split was Inter City and Provincial! 
 

Network South East, Inter City and Regional Railways came into existence. Each of these were further subdivided such as Inter City East Coast and Regional Railways North East. Each being the basis for a franchise.

 

 

 

My memory cannot stump up the full detail but as I understand it  Trainload Freight was initially carved into TLF-W, TLF-SE and TLF-NE, as the precursor to the fancy titles.   Around this time Dr Brian Mawhinney was sent over to North America to try and persuade Ed Burkhardt to get involved.  The BR plan was for each of the three TLF "divisions" to submit a management buyhout scheme for itself and the other two.  Ed Burkhardt was having none of that and said he wanted all or nothing. He therefore picked up TLF+Parcels complete for roughly £225M.

 

Going back in the time machine though there were Area Manager areas.  I moved to Bescot in the summer of 1980 whilst the Divisional tier was still in place and we had Birmingham Divisional Control between us at Area level and Crewe at LMR regional level. Not sure if it was coincidental but I am pretty sure Area Manager Bescot became Area Manager West Midlands freight, as opposed to Area Manager West Midlands (passenger).  Whist under BR control there were dozens of Divisional structures which very probably became Regional organisations, but I am thinking of the pools of locos and wagons.

 

At Bescot we had class 31s, in all the varied liveries. But they were owned by different operators.  Regional, Intercity etc. There were seven different pools of Bescot allocated 31s, one of which only had the one loco in it. Something like a DM&EE allocated engine - amidst the DM&EE and DCE and RM&EE entities.   

 

I admit that the acquisition of TLF and parcels and subsequently RfD made our jobs jobs simpler, even if it cut our jobs and made some of us displaced and redundant.  . 

[8K77]

Trainload Freight Gave its area managers a certain amount of freedom it was all part of the "Quality through Teamwork" Program. So areas like the Midlands the East Mids area Manager created his "East Mids Freight" and the West Mids created his "West Mids Freight". Not to be outdone Erick Straw created "Yorkshire Freight" and Colin Palmer created "South Humber Freight" areas. I think the area manager for Teesside may have done the same and I am sure the Westbury area and South Wales and North London area managers did the same. 

 

As the shadow operators came into fruition and EWS emerged these area management areas was consigned to history. 

 

Thanks, 

8K77

[Rivercider]

Was this part of the OFQ (Organising for Quality?) re-organisation?.

 

In 1991 I left the Bristol Area Freight Centre for a clerical job in the newly formed West of England Freight office at Westbury. West of England Freight was part of the Railfreight Construction sector. I left the office in 1992 having got demoralised with the paperwork and returned to Bristol TOPS. 

The West of England Freight Area subsequenty became part of Mainline Freight, with the exception of the West Devon/Cornwall area which became an isolated part of Transrail.

 

cheers 

[101]

Back in the 80's/90's when everyone seemed to want to give us mugs, this was one of many I received 

 

I'm pretty sure that West of England freight turned into Trainload Freight South East and then into Mainline, before EWS turned up.

I'm sure Mike (stationmaster) will be able to fill in the details.

[C126]

11 hours ago, Mark Saunders said:

Network South East, ... came into existence

 

Off topic, but was "Network South East" called something like "London & South East" before Mr Green renamed and re-branded it?  I have a diagrammatic map of it all somewhere in my 'piles', with a royal blue header title.

[18B]

12 hours ago, Hippel said:

The areas you refer to (East Midlands Freight) etc. were still under British Rail before TLF etc. I was at East Midlands Passenger and we were reorganised into shadow TOCs before privatisation itself.

 

Paul

 

Hi Paul, 

 

Yes the Freight side had areas and so did the passenger side under Provincial, on the LMR they were IIRC Nottingham, Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool amongst others I believe. 

[18B]

The epochs of the Running of Freight, (I understand them) were:

 

Regions, LMR, WR, ScR, SR, ER. 

 

Sectors, Railfreight (InterCity, LSE then NSE, Provincial, Parcels)

 

Within Railfreight it was then split into areas in the late Railfreight early Trainload Freight era. to give:

East Midlands Freight

West Midlands Freight

Yorkshire Freight 

Humberside Freight? 

West Of England Freight..... 

 

Presumably there were others that covered the whole of the UK? 

 

It was then in the early 1990s that the Trainload Freight reformed and carved up to into three regional companies,

TLF-W, TLF-SE and TLF-NE, 

 

These were what were then rebranded as Loadhaul, Transrail and Mainline. Only to all be sold to what became EWS. 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

It came over series of major organisational changes.  Area Management had its routes back in the 1960s but specialised Areas only really began to emerge in the 1980s and not then on all Regions.  The first steps towards sectorisation at top level came with the creation of the business sectors in the later half of the 1980s but these ran in parallel with the Regions with the main differences being that the Regions managed the railway while the business  sectors owned and partially managed rolling stock and traction resources which the Regions then organised into working diagrams etc..

 

So taking my position as WR Freight and Departmental (train) Planning Officer from 1989-92 we looked to the freight sub-scectors to tell us what traction resources they would make available for their flows but we diagrammed them and told them what resources were needed.  We diagrammed traincrews who were still a Regional resource but on the WR we rapidly moved on our own initiative to what amounted to sectorisation (and definitely specialisation) of traincrew depots wherever we could .e.g. Didcot took over engineering train work from Reading which became solely a passenger working depot for NSE.   eEffectively it was a continuation, with even more specialisation, of the WR policies of restricting traction knowledge to particular depots.  At that time all the WR Area Managers were multi-business but some had a predominance  on either passenger or freight and all had operational responsibility for all trains on their patch.

 

In 1992 the Regions were abolished and their work effectively transferred to the Sectors - I went into Trainload Freight, on promotion, in one of its service planning and control office management roles covering what had previously been the Western and Southern Regions with planning teams at Swindon and Friars Bridge Court (aka Fraggle Rock) and Controllers at Swindon and Fraggle Rock.  The sub-sectors still owned the movement resources but we planned the use of them as part of TLF Operations and we planned and timetabled the trains.  TLF also established its own Area Managers - as noted above by SED Freightman.

 

The next change came in 1994 when the separate freight companies were established as a prelude to privatisation - in my view a very wasteful reorganisation as it all fairly soon went to one private owner (except for RfD and Freightliner) with yet another upheaval of reorganisation.  (At which juncture I departed the freight world and went instead, on promotion,  to operational planning/operations management with  a passenger operator.

[nigb55009]

There was also North West Railfreight, based at Warrington. The area covered up to Carlisle, including the Cumbrian coast. ISTR it also covered the

North Wales coast, Buxton area and Crewe, including MGR workings from Silverdale Colliery. I`m not sure about the Stoke area, that might have become

part of one of the Midlands areas.

 

[18B]

1 hour ago, nigb55009 said:

There was also North West Railfreight, based at Warrington. The area covered up to Carlisle, including the Cumbrian coast. ISTR it also covered the

North Wales coast, Buxton area and Crewe, including MGR workings from Silverdale Colliery. I`m not sure about the Stoke area, that might have become

part of one of the Midlands areas.

 

 

When you say north Wales, do you mean the "North West Freight"? 

[nigb55009]

No, I mean North Wales freight services. Trains to Holyhead, Amlwch, Transffyndd etc. I used to have a Local Trip Notice, from 1982  I think, which included Llandudno Junction workings as well as Chester and Holyhead. 

[18B]

17 minutes ago, nigb55009 said:

No, I mean North Wales freight services. Trains to Holyhead, Amlwch, Transffyndd etc. I used to have a Local Trip Notice, from 1982  I think, which included Llandudno Junction workings as well as Chester and Holyhead. 

 

Oh, so North West Freight also covered north Wales? 

 

Within Railfreight it was then split into areas in the late Railfreight early Trainload Freight era. to give:

East Midlands Freight

West Midlands Freight

Yorkshire Freight 

Humberside Freight

North West Freight

West Of England Freight..... 

[nigb55009]

Thinking about the Local Trip Notice I mentioned earlier, it was later than 1982. Probably more likely 1987/8. The trip workings covered an area including

Warrington, Springs Branch, Preston, Carnforth, Barrow, Workington and Carlisle depots, as well as Crewe, Chester, Llandudno Jn and Holyhead.

Garston and Ellesmere Port, which had include work transferred from Birkenhead. I think by that time Northwich had closed, the work andsome of the 

men, moving to Warrington. Around the same time, Buxton and Manchester area freight traffic came under the responsibility of North West Freight, were

as previously freight had been part of each Area Managers control. I can`t remember when Buxton`s freight work was moved to Peak Forest, I think it would

have been a little later. 

[18B]

1 minute ago, nigb55009 said:

Thinking about the Local Trip Notice I mentioned earlier, it was later than 1982. Probably more likely 1987/8. The trip workings covered an area including

Warrington, Springs Branch, Preston, Carnforth, Barrow, Workington and Carlisle depots, as well as Crewe, Chester, Llandudno Jn and Holyhead.

Garston and Ellesmere Port, which had include work transferred from Birkenhead. I think by that time Northwich had closed, the work andsome of the 

men, moving to Warrington. Around the same time, Buxton and Manchester area freight traffic came under the responsibility of North West Freight, were

as previously freight had been part of each Area Managers control. I can`t remember when Buxton`s freight work was moved to Peak Forest, I think it would

have been a little later. 

 

 

1987/8 is exactly the period that this would refer to, those early Trainload Freight days. Buxton went to Peak Forest in 1994 IIRC. or certainly very much around that date. 

[nigb55009]

I`ve still got some of the badges we were given at the time. I was a Guard at Springs Branch at that time. In May 1988, with all the MGR traffic having gone over Driver Only Operation,

several of us were made redundant. Six of us went to Preston and one to Blackpool. I hated it, passenger work and ticket machines, give me a shunting  pole and a rusty coupling anytime.

Fortunately it only lasted until September, then we went back to the Branch. Some of us passed the aptitude test and became Traimen D, later becoming Drivers. When the Branch closed

in 1992 a lot more of us were made redundant, we moved Mancheter Vic, Picc, Lime St, one even went to Skipton. The freight work went to Warrington. Some Drivers moved to Wigan

Wallgate, to cover the DMU work.

[Mike Storey]

9 hours ago, C126 said:

 

Off topic, but was "Network South East" called something like "London & South East" before Mr Green renamed and re-branded it?  I have a diagrammatic map of it all somewhere in my 'piles', with a royal blue header title.

 

Yes, it was called London & South East sector from 1982 to 1986, when Chris Green took over from his stint at ScotRail. There was an attempt to call it LASER (for London And South East Railway), but he preferred NSE, so that is what it became.

 

[Mike Storey]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

It came over series of major organisational changes.  Area Management had its routes back in the 1960s but specialised Areas only really began to emerge in the 1980s and not then on all Regions.  The first steps towards sectorisation at top level came with the creation of the business sectors in the later half of the 1980s but these ran in parallel with the Regions with the main differences being that the Regions managed the railway while the business  sectors owned and partially managed rolling stock and traction resources which the Regions then organised into working diagrams etc..

 

So taking my position as WR Freight and Departmental (train) Planning Officer from 1989-92 we looked to the freight sub-scectors to tell us what traction resources they would make available for their flows but we diagrammed them and told them what resources were needed.  We diagrammed traincrews who were still a Regional resource but on the WR we rapidly moved on our own initiative to what amounted to sectorisation (and definitely specialisation) of traincrew depots wherever we could .e.g. Didcot took over engineering train work from Reading which became solely a passenger working depot for NSE.   eEffectively it was a continuation, with even more specialisation, of the WR policies of restricting traction knowledge to particular depots.  At that time all the WR Area Managers were multi-business but some had a predominance  on either passenger or freight and all had operational responsibility for all trains on their patch.

 

In 1992 the Regions were abolished and their work effectively transferred to the Sectors - I went into Trainload Freight, on promotion, in one of its service planning and control office management roles covering what had previously been the Western and Southern Regions with planning teams at Swindon and Friars Bridge Court (aka Fraggle Rock) and Controllers at Swindon and Fraggle Rock.  The sub-sectors still owned the movement resources but we planned the use of them as part of TLF Operations and we planned and timetabled the trains.  TLF also established its own Area Managers - as noted above by SED Freightman.

 

The next change came in 1994 when the separate freight companies were established as a prelude to privatisation - in my view a very wasteful reorganisation as it all fairly soon went to one private owner (except for RfD and Freightliner) with yet another upheaval of reorganisation.  (At which juncture I departed the freight world and went instead, on promotion,  to operational planning/operations management with  a passenger operator.

 

Agree with all of that Mike, except that the business sectors were created in 1982, not the latter half of the 80's.

 

 

[Rivercider]

4 hours ago, 18B said:

 

Oh, so North West Freight also covered north Wales? 

 

Within Railfreight it was then split into areas in the late Railfreight early Trainload Freight era. to give:

East Midlands Freight

West Midlands Freight

Yorkshire Freight 

Humberside Freight

North West Freight

West Of England Freight..... 

In addition there was also South Wales Freight (was this a metals or coal sector area?).

Based on earlier replies to this thread was there an Anglia Freight and a South East Freight, or were they combined?

 

Note also that in the 1980s the new Anglia Region was formed out of the ER,

 

cheers 

[SED Freightman]

 With regard to the former Southern Region, initially Trainload Freight contracted with Network South East to deal with all operational matters, including train planning, the relevant NSE Area Managers being responsible for both freight and passenger activities in their respective areas whilst dedicated short and long term freight planning teams existed in the General Offices at Waterloo.  Train planning and diagramming was undertaken by the general NSE train planning and diagramming sections at Waterloo (one for each former division of course), whilst there was also a Regional Freight Managers organisation to deal with various residual matters and ensure the requirements of Trainload Freight were addressed by NSE.  This all changed from Monday 29/04/1991 when the Area Manager Freight (South), led by Area Manager Jon Hunting,  commenced activities, initially based at the Network Technical Centre, Croydon (formerly Southern House).  AMF(S)  was one of three areas overseen by Trainload Construction, it took over the day to day operational aspects of all freight activity on the former SR except for Freightliners, with outbased Freight Service Managers located at Dover (Ernie Puddick), Eastleigh (Peter Horne) and Hoo Junction (Eddie Creighton) along with a Traincrew Manager at Hither Green (Stuart Griffin).  The area symbol was an Oast House as it was thought to be recognisable across the former SR, this appeared on AMF(S) documentation and also on locos allocated to Hither Green Depot.  AMF(S) staff relocated to Friars Bridge Court in Blackfriars Bridge Rd on Wednesday 18/03/1992.  Upon completion of the remodelling of Willesden Yard for Channel Tunnel Traffic this was transferred from the control of Anglia Freight at Stratford to AMF(S) and gained its own Freight Service Manager (Jon Boucher).  Around this time the train planning and control resources dedicated to freight (by now located at Friars Bridge Court) were transferred from NSE to TLF as detailed by The Stationmaster and the former Regional Freight Manager organisation became the Freight Routes Manager, again located at Friars Bridge Court.   The AMF(S) organisation continued until Thursday 31/03/1994 when the shadow freight company, later to become Mainline Freight, took over day to day TLF operations and the three former Areas became one based at Westbury, allegedly at the insistence of Foster Yeoman despite it being remote from a lot of freight activity.

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by SED Freightman
Amendment

[18B]

It seems that there were:

 

East Midlands Freight

West Midlands Freight

Yorkshire Freight 

Humberside Freight

North West Freight

West Of England Freight

South Wales Freight 

Anglia Freight

South East Freight

 

missing however the Scottish Areas....