The Antioch branch

[Guest Jack Benson]

Oh dear, it truly is a slippery slope.

 

 

It may be small but it is rather appropriate for a shortline and the review was very encouraging, surprisingly the UK price was 50% of US dealers without mentioning the shipping+import duty etc.  

 

StaySafe

 

Edited September 9, 2022 by Jack Benson
OBE

[Guest Jack Benson]

Hi,

 

Some progress, the four 48” baseboards intended for another project will become Antioch, this change effectively doubles the available length and potentially two extra FY roads.

 

The station length will increase by a modest 24” and possibly undergo a horizontal flip because the old control panel wiring for the FY is on the far left of the layout…..

 

 

The following image gives some idea of the rural nature of the area, the copyright is per caption from a Facebook group. Although Pa rather than NY, it is pretty much typical. Hopefully, this modelegenic scene can be captured. The railroad has long gone and Merkel’s Mill in Berk’s County, Pa is now a substantial private residence. Maybe on the spur from the siding at bottom left on the plan? 
 

 

Finally, a link to an interesting discussion on shortlines and upgrading the Bachmann mogul 

 

StaySafe

[Guest Jack Benson]

@F-UnitMad

 

I could not resist, less than £40, packaging still shrink wrapped. 
 

[EmporiaSub]

40 minutes ago, Jack Benson said:

@F-UnitMad

 

I could not resist, less than £40, packaging still shrink wrapped. 
 

Could hook a milk Reefer on the back for the evening run to the junction, and on to the big city….

[Guest Jack Benson]

2 hours ago, EmporiaSub said:

Could hook a milk Reefer on the back for the evening run to the junction, and on to the big city….

This is arriving soon.

 

[long island jack]

3 way switches were a big expense to railroads, space in the rural area was not a problem, unlike some of the urban areas, so they'd probably use two switches instead, just saying.                    it's your railroad you can do as you like!

 

[Guest Jack Benson]

39 minutes ago, long island jack said:

3 way switches were a big expense to railroads, space in the rural area was not a problem, unlike some of the urban areas, so they'd probably use two switches instead, just saying.                    it's your railroad you can do as you like!

 

Hi,

 

The trackplan shown is unlikely to survive as is, there are a number of changes needed moreover I have a surplus of ordinary turnouts and no three-way. Unfortunately there is a paucity of information on actual locations, I have a couple of Iain Rice MRR plan books, neither feature a simple end of line hence the adaption of an arrangement that is a known quantity. 

 

StaySafe
 

 

 

 

[long island jack]

there's loads of track plans on Rob Chant website for ideas, you maybe able to use part of them in your plan

 

http://www.jomrd.com/index.php?page=Blog&pageno=3

 

look at Walnut grove and Glen oak, click on read more buttons

Edited September 10, 2022 by long island jack

[Guest Jack Benson]

Thanks, 

 

I joined his FB group and have already discovered a plan for a Pennsylvania shortline terminus on a L shape, it is a revelation as it incorporates a turning triangle, absolutely perfect for my requirements.

 

Again many thanks

 

StaySafe

[long island jack]

search for this group, and look for Robert Mounteray  he's the guy he done the plan for, loads of photos of the build.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/410744429306007

 

[mdvle]

16 hours ago, Jack Benson said:

it is a revelation as it incorporates a turning triangle, absolutely perfect for my requirements.

 

Called a "wye" in North American railroading in case that helps anyone attempting a online search.

 

20 hours ago, Jack Benson said:

 

Unfortunately there is a paucity of information on actual locations,

 

North American railroads didn't go for tank engines in the steam era for the most part and thus it was very common for any end of line location to either have a wye or a turntable to rotate the engine if it was any distance away from a junction.

 

While these aren't NYC (they are Canadian Pacific in southern Ontario) they may help.  All 3 started out with turntables - though Walkerton's was located across the river.

 

http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/CPR_Bruce/map_Elora_1949.jpg

 

http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/CPR_Bruce/map_Teeswater.jpg

 

http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/CPR_Bruce/walkerton_plan.jpg

 

And a blog post where someone has done layout plans based on 2 of the above.

[Guest Jack Benson]

Hi,

 

The following is fixed:-

The layout will be an inverted shallow L shape 16’ long on four 48”x30” four boards, the short end is a 60”x30” board and a small triangular board inside the corner for the inner curve. 

This is up for grabs:-

Maybe best to start the trackplan with the FY then add the other essentials except there are just a few:-

• very small depot with road access, platform, run round loop
• feed mill 
• merchandise warehouse/farm supplies
• milk dock (not sure if this is a ‘thing’ in ‘50, maybe the churns would be loaded at the depot)

Just the depot is planned to be located on the short end board, the other items are just around the corner on the long side. However this might change if the depot cannot fit on the short end board, stay flexible as nothing is set in stone! 
 

Finally, the line, after leaving the terminal, would meander through rolling farmland, past a typical homestead,  to the four-road FY at the end of the layout. 
 

It is all very typical of a quiet BLT, except all the details are upstate New York. 
 

For those still interested, this link will take you to the LDE list, click here
 

StaySafe

 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Jack Benson
Images removed

[Guest Jack Benson]

Hi,

 

Currently scribbling trackplans that include the 'wye' and a very rudimentary depot. The trackplan for Antioch will reflect both the impecunious nature of rural byeways and their essential purpose to serve the various customer - definitely no non-essential features.

 

However, one feature that I find puzzling, it seems  that many modeller's railroad trackplans are invariably similar:- all sidings run in the same direction etc. all very neat and parallel with the running line whereas examining a couple or more prototype street maps of small towns, the actual location of the various rail-served customer's premises are anything but neat. 
But, maybe I am looking through the telescope from the wrong end, surely it is easier to move the business to the railroad even if it means loading the goods into a truck?

 

Btw, the milk dock is replaced by an all-purpose 'team' track for access to the railroad by general customers. Another comment received was that coal/fuel were either unloaded at the team track or handled by the merchandise warehouse/farm supplies.

 

Thanks

[F-UnitMad]

2 hours ago, Jack Benson said:

one feature that I find puzzling, it seems  that many modeller's railroad trackplans are invariably similar:- all sidings run in the same direction etc. all very neat and parallel with the running line whereas examining a couple or more prototype street maps of small towns, the actual location of the various rail-served customer's premises are anything but neat. 

Modellers have a problem the Real World does not, especially in the USA - baseboard size and edges. 😉

[Mike_Walker]

On 10/09/2022 at 07:12, long island jack said:

3 way switches were a big expense to railroads, space in the rural area was not a problem, unlike some of the urban areas, so they'd probably use two switches instead, just saying.                    it's your railroad you can do as you like!

 

3-way switches aren't confined to urban areas.  Here's an example at Aberdeen deep in rural North Carolina and stub switches to boot too!  They said every time they got a visit from the local FRA inspector he just shook his head and moved on!

 

 

Plenty of modelling inspiration there.

[mdvle]

4 hours ago, Jack Benson said:

However, one feature that I find puzzling, it seems  that many modeller's railroad trackplans are invariably similar:- all sidings run in the same direction etc. all very neat and parallel with the running line whereas examining a couple or more prototype street maps of small towns, the actual location of the various rail-served customer's premises are anything but neat. 

 

F-UnitMad pretty much covered it - space limitations.  We don't have the depth to our layouts to allow for sidings that meander around the local geography nor the length to allow those sidings to get where they want to go.

 

So out of necessity we do things roughly parallel with the main line with as short of a siding as we can get away with.

 

That said the railroads also would have preferred things closer to what we model as every extra length of a siding was an additional cost to install and then maintain - which in places like upper New York State will potentially include snow removal for part of the year.

 

4 hours ago, Jack Benson said:

But, maybe I am looking through the telescope from the wrong end, surely it is easier to move the business to the railroad even if it means loading the goods into a truck?

 

This actually would have generally been the case - the only businesses that would get dedicated sidings would be those which generated a lot of carloads that would in turn justify the cost of the siding - and of course to generate that much traffic means a much more substantial business with a larger building that often really doesn't fit along the railroad's right of way.

 

Also, in some cases the industry would either pre-date the railroad or have another need that dictated location - like be next to a river with sufficient vertical drop to allow a waterwheel to power machinery.

 

So in addition to your team track there would be the freight house where shipments were concentrated/dispersed from/to local businesses.  There would potentially be the shared livestock pens. etc.  These all would generally be parallel sidings.

 

Many intermediate stations on a line, lacking significant industry, would just be 1 siding where the freight house's boxcar and any other freight cars for loading/unloading out in the open would be left - and this generally would parallel the main.

[D9020 Nimbus]

Would it make a difference what part of the US the layout was set in? I imagine that in much of the east, the towns were there first, whilst in the Midwest and beyond, the railroad would be there first and so the industries would be built where the tracks were, more or less?

[Guest Jack Benson]

Hi and thanks,

 

This morning was taking down the remaining four main boards, removing the turnout motors and re-erecting said boards - sounds boring but very therapeutic as it is real progress. 
 

Anyhew, no change in the LDE’s posted on Sunday, the layout will not become another topsy, just a ‘wye’ adjacent to a delightfully minimal depot consisting of a building on a platform, a loop, plus the three sidings and the mainline. A rather heady parsimonious of just eight (or nine) turnouts of which three are the ‘wye’, I think that the original builders of the Antioch branch would have approved.

 

That’s it because the next few weeks will be spent beavering away until the track is back down and trains are running once more as I much prefer operating very small branchlines, rather than watching big trains rushing around the room……..I may well be odd.

 

StaySafe

[mdvle]

2 hours ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

Would it make a difference what part of the US the layout was set in? I imagine that in much of the east, the towns were there first, whilst in the Midwest and beyond, the railroad would be there first and so the industries would be built where the tracks were, more or less?

 

That can be part of it, though geography also plays a part.

 

The CP Historical Society has a number of track layouts from the Canadian Prairies and they are all very similar - straight piece of mainline with one or 2 often long sidings serving  1 or more grain elevators plus the freight house and team track.  It's obvious in many cases that the grain elevators were the first substantial buildings in the area and thus a town grew up around that.  But the geography for laying a railroad was also on the easy side so long straight sections of track were both possible and preferable.

 

In the east (or parts of the west coast) where the populations already existed the railroads would attempt to service the towns along the route.  But they were frequently constrained by the geography of elevation, rivers, etc which meant the tracks often weren't in a straight line and often thus meant that a town's station was located outside of the town - sometimes maybe a km away.

 

 

Edited September 13, 2022 by mdvle

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, Jack Benson said:

trains are running once more as I much prefer operating very small branchlines, rather than watching big trains rushing around the room……..I may well be odd.

 

Small branchline or switching layouts are far more popular than media like Model Railroader would make one believe. 

 

A comment on a statement from your blog regarding only NYCRR rolling stock.  While NYCRR stock would likely dominate even a branchline would get rolling stock from other railroads as the freight cars were interchanged widely even back then.  So feel free to add other equipment if it catches your interest.

[pH]

3 hours ago, mdvle said:

The CP Historical Society has a number of track layouts from the Canadian Prairies and they are all very similar - straight piece of mainline with one or 2 often long sidings serving  1 or more grain elevators plus the freight house and team track.  It's obvious in many cases that the grain elevators were the first substantial buildings in the area and thus a town grew up around that.  But the geography for laying a railroad was also on the easy side so long straight sections of track were both possible and preferable.

There’s an article in the June 1997 ‘Trains’ describing the Grand Trunk Pacific (now CN) line from Winnipeg to Edmonton across the Prairies. It contains a description of the standard depot (and standard town layout) used in the later stages of construction of the line.

 

The depot was a combination freight and passenger building, almost always north of the (east to west) tracks. The freight section of the depot was to the west,  providing some shelter for the passenger part from the prevailing northwesterly winter winds.

 

Freight tracks including tracks to the elevators, were to the south of the mainline, and set back some distance from it. That was for two reasons. Snow accumulating in the lee of the elevators would not block the mainline, and an elevator fire (apparently not unusual) would be that much further away from the depot and town.

 

And the standard layout for the town placed it behind (to the north of) the depot. Main Street ran north from the back door of the depot, with Queen Street one block to the west and King Street one block to the east. 
 

You have to remember, as ‘mdvle’ says, that railway depots were often the first buildings for miles around on the Prairies, so didn’t need to fit in with anything already there. Seeing a picture of triple-deck bunk cars used in construction of the CPR, I thought “How would those go under bridges? Oh, wait …”

[F-UnitMad]

8 hours ago, pH said:

 

The depot was a combination freight and passenger building, almost always north of the (east to west) tracks. The freight section of the depot was to the west,  providing some shelter for the passenger part from the prevailing northwesterly winter winds.

 

Freight tracks including tracks to the elevators, were to the south of the mainline, and set back some distance from it. That was for two reasons. Snow accumulating in the lee of the elevators would not block the mainline, and an elevator fire (apparently not unusual) would be that much further away from the depot and town.

The prevailing wind would also take the locomotive smoke, soot & smells away from the town, thus leading to the phrase "On the wrong side of the tracks".

[fulton]

19 hours ago, Jack Benson said:

 

 

However, one feature that I find puzzling, it seems  that many modeller's railroad trackplans are invariably similar:- all sidings run in the same direction etc. all very neat and parallel with the running line whereas examining a couple or more prototype street maps of small towns, the actual location of the various rail-served customer's premises are anything but neat.

Interesting project, my own layout based on the prototype Potato spur at Plant City has all the above, parallel lines, same direction, layouts first exhibition this Saturday at Crawley, photo from Google Earth 2014.

[Guest Jack Benson]

Having wasted time (sorry, researched) online images of small towns in upstate New York, it certainly isn’t anything like the mid-west as preferred by model building manufacturers. Rather similar to bits of Surrey, lots of substantial brick buildings rather than weather worn wood, less temporary nature due to cold winters,  the availability of both material and skilled labour. 

Anyhew, these look interesting and have a sort of ‘togetherness’ feel. The single story could be a small rail served cold store and the bigger building is feed mill, although some amount of remedial surgery is needed for both.

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Jack Benson

[Guest Jack Benson]

And now a rudimentary trackplan, the layout is an inverted L shape 16’x7’6”’ on five boards

 

 

The plan incorporates the essential LDE for a rural shortline, a ‘wye’ with one leg to the runaround at the depot. The three stub-end tracks serve the:-

• Feed mill and cold store
• Merchandise warehouse/agricultural & fuel supplies
• Public access team track

That should suffice for a small community of <1000

The exit line is fed by a four-road FY that will accommodate four cars +loco on each road

 

That’s it, now the task of laying and wiring the track.

 

StaySafe