Is there demand for scale models larger than HO

[John M]

The demand is there for scale models larger than HO  but for 1:32 (Gauge 1) and 1:20.3 (3' narrow gauge) rather than Gauge O, its expensive and takes up a lot of space. https://www.accucraftestore.com/g1-nw-j-class  

 

I originally modelled American narrow gauge using LGB and Bachmann (1:22.5 scale) but converted to the more prototypical 1:20.3 after seeing the sheer mass of the American 3' gauge equipment during a visit to Colorado.

 

Probably works out less expensive than HO or 4mm in the end as I am less tempted (don't have the money) to keep buying the latest releases.

[Nearholmer]

I’ve skimmed this and see no mention of narrow gauge beyond Bachman 0n30, which misses a significant chunk of 0 scale activity, working to very fine detail, on several gauges, notably 0n3. If you haven’t already, get hold of a copy of Nartow Gauge and Shortlines Gazette to understand that there is a thriving ‘scene’, with modellers producing work every bit as good as those whose craftsmanship is shown in MRJ or NG&IRM.

 

 

Edited September 2, 2022 by Nearholmer

[sncf231e]

15 hours ago, JAMO said:

I think O scale 3-rail trains are toys. The third rail isn't realistic. We can't consider 3-rail as modeling. Sorry my discours is brutal.

 

In France, the 3-rail is tin plate. It's old and youth souvenir layouts of the carpet. A collection of vintage models. Not modeling.

 

Recently a man which own "Chrézo" company has released a very nice plastic model of a French steam locomotive at an affordable price.

 

I do not think many would call this French 3-rail train a tinplate toy but you may of course, I call all my trains toys because I play with them and have fun LOL

Regards

Fred

 

NB: And the CHREZO locomotive also runs on my 3-rail track:

 

[Nearholmer]

You’ll get nowhere with the toy vs model debate, Fred, because a small proportion of people use some arbitrary distinction of their own devising to prove to themselves that they are good/adult/serious, while those on the other side of the line are bad/infantile/trivial. These are sad people.

 

My personal view is that it doesn’t matter a jot how close or far away from dimensional fidelity and photo-realism a person decides to work, provided they enjoy themselves doing so, and I like the whole sweep, from minutely detailed miniatures, moving like Swiss watches through photo-perfect scenery, through to faintly representational bits of printed tin, whizzing round in insane circles on a dining table.

[Traintresta]

I had the opportunity to observe and operate a small S scale switching layout at the NMRA British Region convention in Bournemouth around 10-15 years ago and I was very impressed with the size/scale of it.  The one thing that stops me modelling in S is the lack of availability of products to get running.  Now, I know what you're going to say: scratchbuild and kitbash.  I have scratchbuilt and kitbashed stuff and as enjoyable as it is, I don't want my whole hobby to be about that, I don't want to have to spend all my time doing that just to get up and running.  I wouldn't mind hand-laying my track with Peco products or by soldering to copper clad but I'm not wanting to have to build absolutely everything.

 

Anyway, the OP's question is an interesting one given that Peco have just released a range of TT track products to help the 3mm scale modellers along their way.  It begs the question (in my mind) do we have too many scales/gauges?  Or does the market need to saturate all of the scale/gauges to satisfy everyone in the hobby?  Certainly if TT modelling was to become more mainstream people would start to ask the question of why would I make the jump to HO/OO when it's not that much larger?  So then S becomes a more attractive proposition but I can't help but feel it's going to take far longer than I have on this earth (I'm not quite 40) before it becomes a realistic possibility.

 

And with that I plod on making models of North American prototypes in HO, in a medium sized bedroom in Yorkshire.

[mdvle]

15 hours ago, Traintresta said:

I have scratchbuilt and kitbashed stuff and as enjoyable as it is, I don't want my whole hobby to be about that,

 

The majority of the market is that way - they want the ability to buy most of the stuff and simply operate it - either as is or then use the time saved to do other things in the hobby like scenery or operations.

 

15 hours ago, Traintresta said:

Anyway, the OP's question is an interesting one given that Peco have just released a range of TT track products to help the 3mm scale modellers along their way.

 

Minor point - Peco's TT track is proper TT (1:120) and not 3mm TT.  Thus it is effectively a new scale in the UK.

 

15 hours ago, Traintresta said:

  It begs the question (in my mind) do we have too many scales/gauges?  Or does the market need to saturate all of the scale/gauges to satisfy everyone in the hobby?  Certainly if TT modelling was to become more mainstream people would start to ask the question of why would I make the jump to HO/OO when it's not that much larger?  So then S becomes a more attractive proposition but I can't help but feel it's going to take far longer than I have on this earth (I'm not quite 40) before it becomes a realistic possibility.

 

I don't think there are too many scales/gauges - there will always be people who want a hobby that is less mainstream.

 

I do think though there is a limit to how many different scales can support the necessary revenue for mainstream support of RTR stuff though.  My feeling is that it is about 3 scales.

 

As far as the North American model market I don't think TT stands a chance - N scale in the US has too much support compared to the UK market.

 

 

[mdvle]

On 01/09/2022 at 02:03, PaulRhB said:

Maybe Bachmann’s On30 filled the O scale niche in a small footprint and that hasn’t seen much innovation since Lee Riley passed. 

 

This is something of a key point I think - to go beyond the conventional prevailing wisdom requires someone with enough authority inside a company to push the agenda.  As an example in the Accurascale section Islesy recently commented(*) he had to push hard to get Hornby to do the Pecketts.  Without that person there can be little appetite for risk despite the potential reward.

 

On 01/09/2022 at 04:17, Keith Addenbrooke said:

The impression I get is that - for mainstream / main line modelling - N and Z Scale modelling may be healthier in the States than Europe

 

Can't comment about Europe but I would agree about N and the UK.  Full credit to the guys behind Revolution (without whom N in the UK would really be dead) but Bachmann and Dapol really aren't very interested in tooling new stuff in N.

 

It is very different in the US with Athearn, Rapido, Microtrains and others supporting N.

 

On 01/09/2022 at 04:17, Keith Addenbrooke said:

and while I think S scale was commercially stronger in the US at one time, I’m also thinking that’s no longer the case.

 

Lionel bought out American Flyer (S), I think MTH bought out a different S scale company, but both focused mainly on their O scale lines to the detriment of S scale.

 

Which is why ScaleTrains getting the MTH S stuff could potentially be interesting.

 

On 01/09/2022 at 04:17, Keith Addenbrooke said:

For shortline and Narrow Gauge modelling, larger scales and smaller rosters of more detailed locomotives would seem a logical combination, but my guess is they’d lack the sales volume (per modeller as well as overall) to shake up the market - as already mentioned above, Bachmann’s On30 adventure tapped into that market.

 

And of course Blackstone in HOn3, though they too seem to be struggling these days.

 

On 01/09/2022 at 04:17, Keith Addenbrooke said:

How might a more detailed O scale two rail offering come to market - my guess is a manufacturer, possibly working alongside a provider of two-rail track, would need to get themselves featured on some of the US model railroading podcasts with at least an EP to garner interest.  There could be a market for premium products if the price point was right.  Would Rapido give it a go?  I don’t know, but it would be interesting to do. 

 

My guess, whether O or S, is you are on the right track though perhaps with some behind the scenes communication with other manufacturers to get products from multiple companies out.

 

On 01/09/2022 at 05:11, F-UnitMad said:

I asked Rapido directly, on this Forum, and the reply was basically a flat refusal to consider a US 2-rail O Scale model, because there wouldn't be the sales volume to make it viable, and the dominant 3-rail market would howl in protest if it wasn't made 3-rail compatible.

 

I suspect the reasoning is correct - that 3-rail is so dominant and still thriving that attempting 2-rail O would be difficult.

 

But I will note that Rapido had little appetite for doing freight cars until a bunch of employees at Rapido pushed it enough and changed the minds of those in charge and Rapido is now investing in a lot of freight cars.

 

On 01/09/2022 at 05:11, F-UnitMad said:

Beyond the divide between 2- & 3-rail holding back O Scale is what I see as the standard 'mindset' in the US of what a 'successful' model railroad is - generally a multi-level basement Empire that needs several crews and a dispatcher (who doesn't even see the layout!!) to operate properly.

 

The likes of Model Railroader promote that view but I don't think it is a standard mindset.  Freemo has become very popular and smaller shelf layouts are also quite popular - rumour has it that the most popular layout is still the traditional 4x8.

 

On 01/09/2022 at 05:11, F-UnitMad said:

Interest is mostly geared to main line ops in the Transition Era, despite that time now reaching the edges of Living Memory. 

 

Rapido's biggest selling freight car is the AutoFlood III (post 2000).

 

Both Athearn and ScaleTrains tooled and sell a lot of modern GE locos.

 

The modern era is very popular despite what some of the media would make you think.

 

On 01/09/2022 at 06:20, sncf231e said:

There are many US scale models in 0 gauge by Lionel, MTH, 3Rd Rail etc; I wonder why you consider 3-rail not compatible with scale.

 

It's the inherent compromises made to allow a 3-rail O model negotiate really tight curves.  This means issues on the lower parts of models and has (at least in the past) also meant that some of the stuff haven't been to scale but rather made smaller.

 

These sorts of compromises are all things of the past in HO as HO has moved to more realism.

 

As noted by jasond Atlas attempted to do more "scale" in O but has failed and with their MTH acquisition appears so far to have thrown in the towel and is more interested in 3-rail O gauge for the future.

 

On 01/09/2022 at 13:20, Allegheny1600 said:

 I suspect that eventually, the generation that supports US 3 rail may well die off but what happens then?

 

The hobby is diverse and there are young people into 3-rail O - whether there are enough of them to maintain Lionel/Atlas remains to be seen.

 

 

 

* - https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/155786-more-model-ideas/page/86/#comment-4906405

 

[Mr. Ron from So Mississippi]

N, HO and O are well established gages in the U.S. OO is typically a UK gage and not likely to be a contender here. OO was tried many years ago here by American Flyer, but it never took hold. If OO was to become popular, there would have to be a new track gage. I don't think the NMRA would approve of OO trains running on HO track as it would represent an oddball narrow gage system. The popularity of N gage demonstrated the need for a smaller gage, not a larger one due to space considerations. Right now, HO gage supplies all the bells and Whistles for realistic operation with N gage coming close. I don't see a need for another gage. Besides the rivet counters would go crazy with OO on HO track.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Mr. Ron from So Mississippi

[sncf231e]

2 hours ago, Mr. Ron from So Mississippi said:

OO was tried many years ago here by American Flyer, but it never took hold. 

Was it not Lionel that introduced OO (1:76 scale with a gauge of 19 mm) in the US in 1938? 

Regards

Fred

[298]

On 01/09/2022 at 19:48, tpm1ca said:

https://themodelrailwaydotshow.wordpress.com/port-rowan-in-164/

Enjoy if you visit!

-Trevor

 

I wasn't aware that William Flatt had produced Interurban models in S, I have one of his brass B-1s in O but haven't done much with it. In theory traction modelling was easier in O than HO when I started about 20 years ago and have some duplicates between the two scales, but there's something both right and wrong about O that I can't quite figure out. 

 

I think every scale is going to look disadvantaged when compared to others, alot of my modelling now uses 3d design and printing and I've found out the hard way my modest resin printer isn't big enough to handle a reasonably sized HO Interurban car body in one piece, leading to some inventive solutions.

[jasond]

I had this amazing dream last night:  like Jordan, I had an overpowering urge to contact Jason Shron at Rapido in Canada and convince him that a small loco in O would lead to a new corner of the market to command.  He said OK(!) what should we do?  No I wasn't flummoxed and immediately suggested a Whitcomb 25-tonner, you know the little 0-4-0, with spoked drivers and a coupling rod.  Then the bad part of the dream happens, a 3-railer clutching his Big Boy bursts in and shouts "can you hold it in the light It's so small, will it haul 20+ freight cars round my 8x4, it's too small to get a 3-rail mech with station-master sound announcements in ... rollers ... lobste...", but then the HO guys squeeze past and say "switching layout in O, hurray" or words to that effect.

 

OK, OK, I'll skip the next couple of hours of dreams, then I woke up and realised I'd only sent Jason S a short text from his website contact form paraphrasing all the above and pointing out that his British subsidiary(?) has just gone public about a possible 0-6-0 tram loco.  It's Sunday Jordan, so I can spend the rest of the day cheerful, well chnces are Jason Shron won't see my note till tomorrow....

 

Oh just remembered the dream ended with a happy O-scaler starting to sell his old HO and seeing a 2nd-hand Atlas O-scale switcher (was it an SW or GP15 or ...) and some super 36ft (9"+plus couplers) covered hoppers to add to his new layout.

Jason

ps: I chose the Whitcomb 'cos I've still got my memory of the etched kit I was getting ready 😰

[mdvle]

42 minutes ago, jasond said:

It's Sunday Jordan, so I can spend the rest of the day cheerful, well chnces are Jason Shron won't see my note till tomorrow....

 

More likely Tuesday, Monday is a holiday (Labour/Labor day) in the US and Canada.

 

 

[Ohmisterporter]

Some years ago when US 0 Scale Trains magazine started out the editor, Joe Gianivario?, (I may have got his name wrong, sorry} stated that it would only cater for US two rail 0 gauge. At the time Atlas was producing its 2-rail range and there were positive hopes for it. There were smaller manufacturers also producing 2-rail items. Over the years more 3-rail content began to creep in because there is such a preponderance of that in the US. Joe had to defend this change away from scale 2-rail To be fair some of the 3-rail  freight cars look good on 2-rail layouts after a wheel swap. Sadly, after Joe passed away I stopped reading the magazine so do not know the current 0 scale scene in the US. Of course if you want really finely detailed 2-rail models there is always George Kohs Models. If I have any of the details wrong, somebody correct me.

[Guest WM183]

A Consolidation or Mogul (A more modern one, think 1910 and not 1870) and some 36 or 40 foot cars makes a fine layout in 0 scale, even in a small space. I am combining the schools of thought and making use of traversers to build a very small (4 foot long) Proto 48 layout of a small-town feed and seed sort of place. Teakettle shows up, bothers the boxcars, and leaves. If S was just a BIT more available I'd be on S scale like a hungry cat on a fresh herring. I am scratchbuilding virtually everything - even locomotive drivers - but I still need to buy trucks, brake wheels, a few other bits. If I can get a decent Andrews, Bettendorf, and Archbar truck in S, CONSISTENTLY, I'd switch to S in a heartbeat. I think S is the Goldilocks scale for steam era US stuff, barring gigantic Northe... err, NIAGARAS, or articulateds, and the like. 

[mdvle]

19 hours ago, WM183 said:

If S was just a BIT more available I'd be on S scale like a hungry cat on a fresh herring. I am scratchbuilding virtually everything - even locomotive drivers - but I still need to buy trucks, brake wheels, a few other bits. If I can get a decent Andrews, Bettendorf, and Archbar truck in S, CONSISTENTLY, I'd switch to S in a heartbeat.

 

ScaleTrains had EP samples at the National Train Show of some of the S scale stuff they bought from MTH (boxcar, hopper, caboose) and apparently stated they hoped to have the first models out by the end of this year - though I wonder if they really meant announced to order.

 

My suggestion if you do want to pursue S would be to contact ScaleTrains and ask them about making the trucks they have available separately - if enough people request it they may well do it.

 

A couple of images of the S scale product at the NTS here (you will need to find the ScaleTrains stuff down the page) https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/2022-national-train-show-day-1-12422216?pid=1333223516

[Traintresta]

On 04/09/2022 at 03:36, mdvle said:

 

The majority of the market is that way - they want the ability to buy most of the stuff and simply operate it - either as is or then use the time saved to do other things in the hobby like scenery or operations.

Yes it is, but some scales/gauges require a lot more than others.  I will be scratchbuilding most of my structures because of the footprints, but there's a limit to how much I wasn't to do hence there's no appeal in S right now for me.

 

On 04/09/2022 at 03:36, mdvle said:

Minor point - Peco's TT track is proper TT (1:120) and not 3mm TT.  Thus it is effectively a new scale in the UK.

Wasn't aware this was the case, have to admit I've not looked at it that closely.  Begs the question why?

[Guest WM183]

1 hour ago, mdvle said:

 

ScaleTrains had EP samples at the National Train Show of some of the S scale stuff they bought from MTH (boxcar, hopper, caboose) and apparently stated they hoped to have the first models out by the end of this year - though I wonder if they really meant announced to order.

 

My suggestion if you do want to pursue S would be to contact ScaleTrains and ask them about making the trucks they have available separately - if enough people request it they may well do it.

 

A couple of images of the S scale product at the NTS here (you will need to find the ScaleTrains stuff down the page) https://forum.mrhmag.com/post/2022-national-train-show-day-1-12422216?pid=1333223516

That's the rub; if I have to contact them and beg to get trucks made, that means they will not be in production consistently. O and HO are always available, as it seems the P48 community is large and growing with regard to 0, and HO is... I mean, it's HO. I haven't abandoned the idea of H0; getting a shipment of trucks, couplers, and brake bits from Kadee once or twice a year is easy enough, and they're a one-stop shop for those bits.

[F-UnitMad]

3 hours ago, Traintresta said:

On 04/09/2022 at 03:36, mdvle said:

Minor point - Peco's TT track is proper TT (1:120) and not 3mm TT.  Thus it is effectively a new scale in the UK.

Wasn't aware this was the case, have to admit I've not looked at it that closely.  Begs the question why?

Go to the TT 120 Scale Section, & start reading.... 😉

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/369-25mm-scale-tt120/

[mdvle]

7 hours ago, Traintresta said:

Wasn't aware this was the case, have to admit I've not looked at it that closely.  Begs the question why?

 

As noted lots of discussion in the TT:120 section and in the Peco section, but the short version is that the track can be sold to those in TT in Europe (which presumably is a bigger market than the 3mm market).

[mdvle]

5 hours ago, WM183 said:

That's the rub; if I have to contact them and beg to get trucks made, that means they will not be in production consistently. O and HO are always available,

 

Pretty much nothing in this hobby is in production consistently, almost everything is made in batch mode and inventory is stocked for the rest of the year (or whatever period is applicable).

 

The fact that O and HO have truck stocked as separate parts simply reflects that at some point in the past people who wanted trucks actually contacted the manufacturers to request them - if no one requests them then there will be no perceived demand to stock an item, particularly in the case where ScaleTrains is new to S scale.

 

 

[jjb1970]

US outline three rail O really is a different hobby, asking why people like it is the same as asking any of us why we like our own choices and to most normal people it's all a bit of a mystery. That hobby is what it is, if manufacturers favour it because they find a market for three rail and struggle to sell scale models in O (two or three rail) then you can't really blame manufacturers for making what the market wants. Personally I've never really been into it as it has neither the charm of vintage O for me nor the appeal of scale O modelling but who am I to say anyone else is wrong for having a different opinion.

[Guest WM183]

15 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

Pretty much nothing in this hobby is in production consistently, almost everything is made in batch mode and inventory is stocked for the rest of the year (or whatever period is applicable).

 

The fact that O and HO have truck stocked as separate parts simply reflects that at some point in the past people who wanted trucks actually contacted the manufacturers to request them - if no one requests them then there will be no perceived demand to stock an item, particularly in the case where ScaleTrains is new to S scale.

 

 

I've never not been able to order Kadee couplers in multiple sizes from many different vendors. Trucks and stuff are the same. 

[Ian Holmes]

On 01/09/2022 at 02:08, meil said:

There is Proto48 - https://www.proto48.org/

There is. But in my experience as someone trying to find a way into 2 rail O scale in the USA . It’s a pain. It’s frustrating. I guess these guys model and produce parts in P48 with the best of intentions but no-one seems to have a business plan, some create an online persona that you’d be better off using someone else’s stuff. Don’t expect an organized society like the EMGS, Scalefour Society, or even the Gauge O guild. If there was a properly organized group over here to push that aspect of the hobby perhaps things would improve. But not until then.

Perhaps not even then.

[F-UnitMad]

Standard 2-rail O is really needed as a 'stepping stone' to Proto-48. I can't see anyone moving straight from, say, HO, or even N, into Proto 48, if it isn't even that easy to get into standard 2-rail O.

[Ian Holmes]

43 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

Standard 2-rail O is really needed as a 'stepping stone' to Proto-48. I can't see anyone moving straight from, say, HO, or even N, into Proto 48, if it isn't even that easy to get into standard 2-rail O.

I’ve built track in EM, P4 and now 16mm, so I thought I was well equipped to deal with the task in P:48. What you have is a load of impenetrable websites with nothing in stock and no timeline for getting things ordered. I thought it would be the easiest thing in the world to get a point kit. Like are sold inn the UK . Nope. Didn’t have all the parts and couldn’t tell me when they would be getting everything together. Don’t get me wrong P:48 work is great, but its rather difficult to break into.