Location of tpo with nets in a mail train

[BlackFivesMatter]

Hello, Could anyone advise where a tpo with pick up nets / drop off apparatus would be located in a train? Randomly/ at the loco end/ at the tail? 
 

also, did such tops ever run in a mixed mail/passenger train in the 20th century? 
 

thanks in advance

[keefer]

In the '60s, the West Coast Postal started as 4 or 5 TPO vehicles on the rear of an Aberdeen-Glasgow Buchanan St. service. These were taken off at Stirling, then were worked forward to Carstairs where they joined the main Postal from Glasgow.

The vehicles were ex-LMS types and may have used their nets on the way South from Aberdeen.

[Wheatley]

The answer to anything to do with TPOs, more so than most other railway questions, is 'it depends'. The Highland TPO was a single sorting coach attached at the head of a southbound Inverness - Perth (?) express, there is a photo in one of Peter Johnson's books of a 50-odd yr old Highland Railway sorting carriage behind a couple of almost new 26s around 1960, after which it became a BR Mk1 POS duty until it ceased running. I'm also reasonably sure I've seen a photo of the Carlisle - Ayr sorting carriage running at the back of an early morning passenger train in the 1960s.

 

You would not find it in the middle of the passenger coaches as it would prevent through access, the TPO vehicle either having offset gangways or locked gangways for security reasons.    

 

In a full TPO the nets etc would be wherever was operationally convenient. Both sorting carriages and stowage tenders could be fitted for/with nets, but not all TPO duties required them.  

[phil_sutters]

Doubtless there will be different answers depending on the era and company. This the only photo I have of one.

[The Johnster]

The make up of TPOs was TTBOMK determined by the Post Office, around their need to sort mail.  Sorting vehicles were equipped with pigeon hole letter sorting fittings along the sides, and bag hanging frames into which bundles of sorted letters and larger items and packets were thrown.  These sorting coaches were supplied with unsorted mail in bags (labelled to the TPO) from 'bag tender' coaches, and the sorted mail in it's re-labelled bags returned to the bag tender into piles of bags separated for each station where they would be unloaded. 

 

Collection from and delivery to lineside apparatus was a refinement of this system to provide service to locations without stopping,  The unsorted mail was collected in the net as bags labelled to TPO in a leather pouch, and taken into a bag tender coach, the pouch opened, and the bags taken to the sorting coach to be, um, sorted.  Once sorted, any mail for delivery to a lineside collection bin was re-bagged and labelled, and put into a leather pouch for dropping off the train; the rest was of course bagged and labelled to whatever destination and unloaded at a station. 

 

So, for modelling purposes, probably the most believeable arrangement for a TPO not based on a real formation would be to have the collection vehicle next to a bag tender (or flanked by them), then a sorting coach.  A lot of the actual detail of how the trains were worked and the mail handled aboard them can be gleaned from 'Night Mail', made in the 30s but appropriate for many years before and afterwards.  Remember that some bags on TPOs were not opened or sorted on the train, which was simply used to convey them between sorting offices in normal railway-owned vans, and of course more of these would be present to convey railway parcels.  TPO sorting was a Postman (higher grade) job, and a degree of proficiency in speed and accuracy of sorting was needed by those working on the train, who regarded themselves (not without some justification) as a sort of elite.  They were paid a higher rate than ordinary sorters, and given subsistence allowance for working away from home where the jobs involved 'double home' working, so TPO work was highly sought after and allocated on a seniority basis.  Depending on the volume of mail it could be an easy number or very hard work indeed.

 

The Cardiff-York TPO in the 80s had a cat, which would casually stroll up a few minutes before departure, be fed and petted all the way to York where he would detrain and wander off with equal nonchalence, to repeat the performance at York that evening for the return journey.  He knew when it was Saturday evening and the train did not run, and nobody ever knew what he got up to in the daytimes, but he would sleep most of the York-Cardiff leg, waking up around Hereford to demand breakfast.

[Michael Hodgson]

Position within the train wasn't the only constraint on formation.  At least on double track lines, apparatus was necessarily on the left hand side of the train, so if similar operations were required on the balancing working, it would either need to be turned or a second set of appartus facing the other way would have to be provided on the other side.  Since gangways were offset from the centre you couldn't turn just the coach with apparatus, as the LNER did with  beaver tailed observation cars, it would be the whole rake, where more than one vehicles was involved.

 

Alternatively a second single-sided TPO with apparatus could have been provided in the formation facing the other way round - but its gangway would have had to be offset to the opposite side!

 

And you probably wouldn't want to site the lineside apparatus too close to a water trough in case a fireman misjudged matters.  Because sorters need sufficient time to sort mail, journey times meant some places justified only facilities for picking up or only for setting down mail.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Since gangways were offset from the centre you couldn't turn just the coach with apparatus, as the LNER did with  beaver tailed observation cars, it would be the whole rake, where more than one vehicles was involved.

 

That's what was done. I know a bit about the Bristol - Newcastle TPO in Midland / North Eastern days. At the Bristol end the train was turned on the Mangotsfield triangle. There was no problem at Newcastle, though, with the two Tyne bridges. In one way, out the other. There were three sets of carriages, one northbound, one southbound, each night, and one spare at Derby, though that was also providing spares for the St Pancras - Newcastle TPO.

 

There was some discussion when the Hornby Coronation Scot coaches were announced about whether the train was turned - the conclusion being that it was, and at the Euston end was turned by the same triangle of lines as had been used to turn the West Coast Postal for many years - though I'm afraid I can't recall the details! 

[pH]

Here’s West Coast Postal coaches at Kittybrewster, on the way to being turned. I don’t know of any triangle in that area, so how would that be done? One at a time on the Kittybrewster shed turntable, with them being re-marshalled into correct order afterwards?

 

http://www.gnsra.org.uk/index_htm_files/544270.jpg

 

Also interesting because of a Jubilee north (just) of Aberdeen Joint station.

 

[Morello Cherry]

It appears the GNR had TPO vehicles with nets on both sides to avoid turning. Some good shots and info on East Coast postal services.

 

https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/209-tpo-services-in-lner-and-er-days

[keefer]

3 hours ago, pH said:

Here’s West Coast Postal coaches at Kittybrewster, on the way to being turned. I don’t know of any triangle in that area, so how would that be done? One at a time on the Kittybrewster shed turntable, with them being re-marshalled into correct order afterwards?

 

http://www.gnsra.org.uk/index_htm_files/544270.jpg

 

Also interesting because of a Jubilee north (just) of Aberdeen Joint station.

 

I'm sure I've read somewhere that the coaches were individually turned then remarshalled. Looks like the typical formation of the WC Postal with LMS vehicles. 

(I'll post the 1960s PTM Book entry when I can find it)

Edited September 2, 2022 by keefer

[eastglosmog]

Stations where you had to go in and out by the same route such as Carmarthen must have been a bit of a headache for through TPO workings from or to Pembroke.  Did they have to reverse on the triangle outside before proceeding on their way?

[melmerby]

18 minutes ago, eastglosmog said:

Stations where you had to go in and out by the same route such as Carmarthen must have been a bit of a headache for through TPO workings from or to Pembroke.  Did they have to reverse on the triangle outside before proceeding on their way?

Maybe the whole train was pulled back to the mainline whence it came in the same fashion as S&DJR passenger services at Templecombe?

[BlackFivesMatter]

It was the Highland tpo which was the most interesting one for me, but I recall watching the Glasgow mail coaches at central too. Of course the Cathcart circle would have been ideal to turn the west coast postal at the Glasgow end and turn the loco too perhaps). The photo of the jubilee at kittybrewster - nectar for a Friday morning! 

[Wheatley]

Not all TPOs picked up/dropped off in both directions, especially those away from the ECML/WCML/West of England trunk routes, so it was not necessarily quite the problem we tend to imagine. Not all vehicles built with provision for traductors and nets actually had them fitted. 

 

The Highland TPO I mentioned earlier carried traductors but not nets (at least in BR days), and on the couple of photos checked they're always on the correct side for drop off northbound only. 

Edited September 2, 2022 by Wheatley

[Michael Hodgson]

Most of the mail carried and sorted was to/from larger towns which were big enough to justify a station stop - the apparatus was only really appropriate to lesser places.  TPOs also met in various places (notably Tamworth) for bulk exchange of traffic.  It should be remembered that the nature of postal traffic was very different from our post today, and I believe a lot of it didn't need to use TPOs because it was sufficiently local.

• they didn't send the contents of pillarboxes unsorted to a big regional centre with machinery, it was pre-sorted locally
• Sorting today is in two main stages: the outcode (first bit of the postcode) determines where to send it, and the incode (second half of the postcode) to put it in the hands of the right postman; whereas traditionally letters could be manually handled multiple times in different places
• there were several collections a day from pillar boxes, enabling sorting workload to be spread across the day
• letter-writing was more common, many personal letters mail were relatively local
• urban addresses would have several deliveries a day
• it was possible to get a letter posted locally this morning to say somebody's coming this afternoon
• before electronic communications, business mail in the form of contracts, orders, invoices, cheque payments was in paper form,
• much business mail was also relatively local, to avoid the delivery cost of buying goods from the other end of the country; they would use local firms for services like banking, accountancy or lawyers
• there were no post codes, sorting of out-of area post was by county/city
• there was typically only one mail train a day to many places, so longer distance post collected earlier in the day could be pre-sorted in plenty of time and accumulated to await the train.
• all post was treated with the same urgency - no "second class"
• they didn't have mail order as we know it, so much less volume of packets and parcels
• they didn't have the junk mail, large quantities of paper distributed to the whole country

[Fat Controller]

3 hours ago, eastglosmog said:

Stations where you had to go in and out by the same route such as Carmarthen must have been a bit of a headache for through TPO workings from or to Pembroke.  Did they have to reverse on the triangle outside before proceeding on their way?

In BR days, the sleeper part of the train conveying TPOs from Carmarthen started from Milford. When this portion arrived at Carmarthen, the loco would be detached, and the TPO section would be attached to what had been the head of the train. This would run via Swansea (High St), where it would reverse direction, but without altering the formation. At Cardiff, the 'Postal' section was detached, to run to Bristol TM, again without any change in orientation. The sleeper portion would run through to Paddington.

What would be interesting to see would be a map showing pick-up and set-down points for TPOs, apart from those at stations; I suspect there were fewer than modellers tend to think.

[keefer]

9 hours ago, keefer said:

I'm sure I've read somewhere that the coaches were individually turned then remarshalled. Looks like the typical formation of the WC Postal with LMS vehicles. 

(I'll post the 1960s PTM Book entry when I can find it)

Here's the entry from the 1960-1 ScR PTM Book:

(The TPO portion detached at Perth, not Stirling)

 

More info, including locations of lineside apparatus in this thread:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/144135-formation-of-the-west-coast-postal-scotland-1960s/

Edited September 2, 2022 by keefer

[Steven B]

23 hours ago, BlackFivesMatter said:

Hello, Could anyone advise where a tpo with pick up nets / drop off apparatus would be located in a train? Randomly/ at the loco end/ at the tail?

 

I'd imagine they'd be at the head of the train, especially if collecting mail on the move - you wouldn't want anyone leaning out of a window to be hit by a suspended mail bag. Looking at period photos it would seam that even after collection/drop off on the move had been stopped that the TPO vans were usually at the front of the train.

 

TPO vans on regular passenger trains weren't uncommon, although photos of them are as they usually ran after dark. Even into the 1980s you'd find some scheduled trains with TPO vans and passenger coaches. There was a Crewe-Cardiff service that ran as POT POS BCK BSK for example. A York-Shrewsbury train ran as BG BG BG POS POS BG SK BG BG.

 

Electric Scot With Two TPOs At Shap Wells. by Neil Harvey 156, on Flickr

 

33031 Southampton by British Rail 1980s and 1990s, on Flickr

 

47447 11 3 88 by dave gommersall, on Flickr

 

I wouldn't like to comment on if they're being used to sort mail on the move, carrying pre-sorted mail or just added to a service train as part of an empty stock move.

 

Steven B

 

Steven B.

[keefer]

In mail/parcels trains there was often some passenger accommodation e.g. SK or BSK for the use of staff but could technically be used by the public - the main obstacle to that being the train wouldn't be in the Public Timetable.

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

In BR days, the sleeper part of the train conveying TPOs from Carmarthen started from Milford. When this portion arrived at Carmarthen, the loco would be detached, and the TPO section would be attached to what had been the head of the train. This would run via Swansea (High St), where it would reverse direction, but without altering the formation. At Cardiff, the 'Postal' section was detached, to run to Bristol TM, again without any change in orientation. The sleeper portion would run through to Paddington.

What would be interesting to see would be a map showing pick-up and set-down points for TPOs, apart from those at stations; I suspect there were fewer than modellers tend to think.

The number of TPO pick=up/set-down locations declined drastically over the years.  But whe I w say 'over the years' in some cases what taht actually meant were the years between the early 20th century and the 1930s.  there was rationalisation after that but a major cull; have taken place on some routes by the 1930s.

 

Incidentally as far as West wales is concerned the TPO vehicle(s) originally worked through with the main portion of the train, including the sleeping cars, to/from Neyland - which for many years was the principal terminus in West Wales (apart from Fishguard for the Boat Trains).

[Wickham Green too]

12 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

.... it was possible to get a letter posted locally this morning ...

Had I posted a letter THIS morning - unless before 9AM - it would still be in the pillar box on the corner ...... tomorrow, Saturday, the only collection is 7AM - or effectively Friday night.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

Had I posted a letter THIS morning - unless before 9AM - it would still be in the pillar box on the corner ...... tomorrow, Saturday, the only collection is 7AM - or effectively Friday night.

here too

[Morello Cherry]

On the subject of turning postal vehicles, what were the turnaround times like? I assume that if something arrived in say Aberdeen in the morning from London, when would it be needed next? The following afternoon/evening for the return working or would there have been an equivalent day time working that meant that it was needed by say midday? I know that the answer is that it depends on where the vehicle was working between but it if they had long turn around times then either hunting for a triangle or turning individual vehicles on a turntable would not have been too onerous. Or I guess you have enough vehicles that even if you do have a day time postal service the vehicles off the night time service aren't needed for it. I'm assuming that companies like the GNR went for double sided vehicles to reduce this turnaround time and I'd imagine get better utilisation out of their vehicles.

 

Also, I wonder if all the photos that have TPO vehicles at the front is a product of the photographs - TPO vehicles at the back of trains would be harder to discern or would be cropped off a typical 3/4 view.

[Compound2632]

32 minutes ago, Morello Cherry said:

On the subject of turning postal vehicles, what were the turnaround times like?

 

Daily, one up, one down, one spare.

 

In other words, out one night and back the next, at least for the longer runs. 

 

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, Morello Cherry said:

.... TPO vehicles at the back of trains would be harder to discern or would be cropped off a typical 3/4 view.

That's the case with all trains, of course ....... particularly frustrating if the 'front' of the train was always the 'front' after turning - or for other Postals ( or something like the Night Ferry ) which didn't turn but only ran one direction in daylight !