Bar frame and plate frame

[844fan]

Hey guys been a while,

I finally am getting parts for my construction of my first loco prototype and I realized something.I have never properly seen a Bar frame locomotive properly, by which I mean the bare frame that holds the wheels and body. I have seen Plate frame in model making as I focused a lot on UK based locos and all, but I have a few that are American designs and while at the end of the day the engines I am making are toys I want to put them together wih proper looking frames.

 

So can anyone by chance show me some bare bbar frames and bare plate frames with notes telling where axels are placed and such? Man I feel like a greenhorn asking this but I know this community is great in helping me find just what I need. Thank you all

[Compound2632]

Baldwin mogul "kit" being assembled at Derby, in 1899. The bar frames are visible, with the vertical members that form the axlebox hornguides:

 

 

[Embedded link to DY1147.]

[Grovenor]

Here is a bigger one.

http://www.norgrove.me.uk/glimages/G20a-2.jpg

[Sheffield]

This was my first trial bar frame, awaiting the motor & gearbox, and finishing off. I now think they are easier to make than a plate frame

 

 

[sir douglas]

bar frames by Bury, Curtis & Kennedy in the 1830's & 40's

[LMS2968]

Realistically, Stephenson's 'Rocket' had bar frames.

[108]

45 minutes ago, sir douglas said:

bar frames by Bury, Curtis & Kennedy in the 1830's & 40's

GSWR 36 is still in existence, in the entrance lobby of Kent Station, Cork. 

[Wickham Green too]

50 minutes ago, LMS2968 said:

Realistically, Stephenson's 'Rocket' had bar frames.

Debateable whether those few 'bars' actually constituted a 'frame' ...... looks like they were supported by the boiler ( etc.) rather than vice-versa.

[Nearholmer]

I think it was modified during it’s working life so that latterly the frames were doing more of the work - I spent ages staring at it in the Science Museum trying to decide what the relative roles of boiler and frames were structurally, and came away not much the wiser!

 

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

PS: Now you can have a go from the comfort of home. This is flipping good! 
 

https://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/about-us/press-office/3d-scan-reveals-intricate-detail-iconic-locomotive

 

I think what it shows is that latterly the boiler was forming a bridge between two fairly solid areas of framing, plate frames supporting the cylinders and rear axle, and two brackets supporting the front axle-boxes, but that those two areas are connected not only by the boiler, but by longitudinal bars. The cross section of each longitude is oriented so that it can’t have offered much rigidity against vertical deflection, more a strap than a frame (I think it might even have ended up in longitudinal tension under some conditions), so I think the boiler was a very key part of the structure, even at the end. It all looks like a right bodge actually, typical of a beta-test version!

 

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

It took about the best part of a generation for locomotive engineers to come to a proper appreciation of the drawbacks of treating the boiler as a structural element. Iron boilers were long-lived, unlike the later steel boilers, so were the component that determined the life-time of early locomotives. 

[DCB]

53 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

PS: Now you can have a go from the comfort of home. This is flipping good! 
 

https://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/about-us/press-office/3d-scan-reveals-intricate-detail-iconic-locomotive

 

I think what it shows is that latterly the boiler was forming a bridge between two fairly solid areas of framing, plate frames supporting the cylinders and rear axle, and two brackets supporting the front axle-boxes, but that those two areas are connected not only by the boiler, but by longitudinal bars. The cross section of each longitude is oriented so that it can’t have offered much rigidity against vertical deflection, more a strap than a frame (I think it might even have ended up in longitudinal tension under some conditions), so I think the boiler was a very key part of the structure, even at the end. It all looks like a right bodge actually, typical of a beta-test version!

It's hard to see what can be learned from that particular piece of mangled scrap, advanced bodgery is very evident as is the lack of a lot of very important bits.  Rocket was a very different engine when she won the Rainhill trials,  She wasn't the fastest loco at Rainhill, I have always believed "Rock it" was its original nick name due to the rocking motion, which someone cleaned up to "Rocket" for PR purposes.  Her archaic layout  pre dated  Hackworth's invention of the Blast Pipe, which made the front of the boiler under the chimney the logical place to put cylinders instead of beside the firebox from where the hottest steam could be taken.

Obviously the  remains  in the Science Museum had been hacked about to provide something usable, the cylinder brackets look like new parts rather than 1829 style so much of the important stuff is missing, makes you wonder how much is left?   Maybe its like 4472 and absolutely nothing original remains.    I wonder if Rocket actually had a blast pipe in the science museum condition, I can't see one (well two)

[Nearholmer]

7 hours ago, DCB said:

It's hard to see what can be learned from that particular piece of mangled scrap

To quote a famous tennis player: you cannot be serious.

 

Regarding blastpipes, Rocket had two, one running along either side of the boiler I think, and who invented the idea has been the subject of much discussion for nearly two centuries, Hackworth being only one of several possible claimants.

 

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Nearholmer

[844fan]

On 02/09/2022 at 21:03, 844fan said:

Hey guys been a while,

I finally am getting parts for my construction of my first loco prototype and I realized something.I have never properly seen a Bar frame locomotive properly, by which I mean the bare frame that holds the wheels and body. I have seen Plate frame in model making as I focused a lot on UK based locos and all, but I have a few that are American designs and while at the end of the day the engines I am making are toys I want to put them together wih proper looking frames.

 

So can anyone by chance show me some bare bbar frames and bare plate frames with notes telling where axels are placed and such? Man I feel like a greenhorn asking this but I know this community is great in helping me find just what I need. Thank you all

Very nice my friends, though I still am having a hard time figuring where the axles would be placed on a fresh frame. 

[Compound2632]

Just now, 844fan said:

Very nice my friends, though I still am having a hard time figuring where the axles would be placed on a fresh frame. 

 

Do you see where the vertical bits of bar are? Where they are in pairs, that's where the axlebox goes.

[844fan]

4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Do you see where the vertical bits of bar are? Where they are in pairs, that's where the axlebox goes.

Pardon my silliness, I just feel bad for even asking about Frames. Been a lover of rails sInce Shinig Time Station with Ringo. Only learned five years ago how injectors work, it was exactly as I had thought but well more involved (My concept was very childish in under standing the principal) 

 

But I think I see, can anyone give me a good view of bar frames like Sheffield did, but with the wheels out of the way?  Also Sheffield is that by chance a Märklin chassis? I know they aren't the only producer of that arrangement but I ticks quite a few notes in my head on Märklin.

[jonhall]

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fahrgestell_2_-_Dampflokwerk_Meiningen_-_CC_BY-SA_4.0_-_Ludwig,_Silvio.jpg

 

Jon

[844fan]

1 minute ago, jonhall said:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fahrgestell_2_-_Dampflokwerk_Meiningen_-_CC_BY-SA_4.0_-_Ludwig,_Silvio.jpg

 

Jon

Ok just to make sure my cross fed brain (that is a joke) sees it right on the slots that are larger and lower that is the place to mount axles correct?

[jonhall]

8 minutes ago, 844fan said:

Ok just to make sure my cross fed brain (that is a joke) sees it right on the slots that are larger and lower that is the place to mount axles correct?

 

That would have 5 driving axles, the middle 3 are missing!

 

 

This is a close up of the axle hole, you can make out the vertical wear plates that the axleboxes move up and down against and at the bottom the bar that retains the axles (the keep) is bolted across

 

Jon

[Nearholmer]

The Wikipedia article on locomotive frames isn’t too bad*, and has quite a good inside view of a bar-frame. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotive_frame
 

Without wishing to cause chaos and confusion, I do wonder (not assert, because I’m not sure) whether the frame shown by Jonhall actually is technically a bar frame. To me it looks as if it might be some sort of box-like structure, made from plates with so many weight-relieving cut-outs that they have the silhouette of a bar frame.

 

* It asserts that bar frames are made of parts welded together, which is true of some, but in earlier designs the parts were riveted together.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

Just now, Nearholmer said:

Without wishing to cause chaos and confusion, I do wonder (not assert, because I’m not sure) whether the frame shown by Jonhall actually is technically a bar frame. To me it looks as if it might be some sort of box-like structure, made from plates with so many weight-relieving cut-outs that they have the silhouette of a bar frame.

 

I found it difficult to find a good photo of a genuine bar frame; there are a good number of photos on-line showing cast frames, which was a late steam technology in the US. These resemble bar frames but are single castings rather than fabrications.

[Nearholmer]

I’m trying too, and can’t find good pictures of the real thing, only model engineering examples, where the structure looks like, but isn’t actually the same as, the real thing.

 

Frustrating!

[jonhall]

8 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Without wishing to cause chaos and confusion, I do wonder (not assert, because I’m not sure) whether the frame shown by Jonhall actually is technically a bar frame. To me it looks as if it might be some sort of box-like structure, made from plates with so many weight-relieving cut-outs that they have the silhouette of a bar frame.

 

 

I think thats fair - I was a little hesitant to post for much the same reason.

 

Jon

[Wickham Green too]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

... single castings rather than fabrications.

...thus ...

 

4014 : Cheyenne, 21/9/17

[eastglosmog]

I would suggest going to the National Railway Museum and examining Old Coppernob of the Furness Railway, which is a bar framed Bury.