Re460s/Re465s + what rolling stock - the early days

[Michanglais]

I was wondering whether, at the introduction of the re460s/re465s, they hauled trains made up of vehicles other than EWIVs?

 

For instance SBB UICs, international services, etc.

 

Any info greatly appeciated!

 

(I'd be particularly interested in any rolling stock available in N gauge)

 

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Michanglais
N gauge

[Satan's Goldfish]

SBB Re460 were used on freight as well as passenger of all coaching types before they were all transferred to passenger use (there were re6/6 in passenger use at that time, they were all subsequently transferred to freight)

 

BLS Re465 were heavily used for freight and the slight design (i.d number) difference is to assist with that. Basic description on wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBB-CFF-FFS_Re_460 

[cornish trains jez]

Hi,

 

Gordon who regularly posts on here is your best bet for that kind of info. He has a wealth of knowledge on everything Swiss railways.

 

Personally, I’ve seen a fair few videos on YouTube featuring the 460/465’s late 90’s early 2000’s, can’t remember if if they were hauling international stock though.

 

Not sure if you are a member, but might be worth joining the Swiss Railways Society. There is a great article on the 460’s in this months mag.

 

Best regards,

 

Jeremy

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by cornish trains jez

[Gordonwis]

15 hours ago, Michanglais said:

I was wondering whether, at the introduction of the re460s/re465s, they hauled trains made up of vehicles other than EWIVs?

 

For instance SBB UICs, international services, etc.

 

Any info greatly appeciated!

 

(I'd be particularly interested in any rolling stock available in N gauge)

 

 

 

The 460s hauled everything, as the whole concept was for a powerful universal loco. As it happens the Re460 was introduced in numbers 30 years ago this month, ie 1992. In 1992 all the familiar and traditional SBB passenger stock was still in use. Topically, the Swiss Railways Society (are you a member?) has an article on the Re460 in the latest issue of Swiss Express, with some good photos by Bernhard Studer of 460s with older stock, notably EWIs and RICs in original green.

 

So, for N (which is my scale as well) you can use inter alia
EWI (LIma/Minitrain/Minibahn/Piko)

EWII (Brawa)

RIC (Hobbytrain, Kato)

EWIV (Roco, Fleischmann)

 

Here are two pictures of my own circa 1997, the distant one is a train between Bad Ragaz and Landquart, the close up is none other than 460 000 at Gilly-Bursinel between Geneve and Lausanne

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Gordonwis

[Satan's Goldfish]

It's pictures like that Gordon that make wish I had more than 1x 460. Very nice!

[Satan's Goldfish]

2 min; 460 on a short post train.

6 min; 2x 460 on freight:

 

 

 

If I find any more I'll keep adding for you.

[Satan's Goldfish]

I'm only just over a minute in, but it's already shown 465 and 460 in late 1990s use so I think you'll find this one useful.

 

 

 

(Green Ae 6/6 on a Eurocity service, REOS brings us the best filth!)

Edited September 6, 2022 by Satan's Goldfish

[Frutigen]

12 hours ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

I'm only just over a minute in, but it's already shown 465 and 460 in late 1990s use so I think you'll find this one useful.

Really entertaining video, thanks for finding it. 

[Gottardo]

You can't get much more "International" than this.😀

A couple of shots I took at Airolo in August 1992 of 460 005 and 460 024 working a test train on the Gotthard route. The train was made up of coaches from Switzerland, Austria, Germany and Italy.

 

[Gottardo]

Another shot taken on the same day at Airolo.

460 000 (before it received "2000" branding) on a train which appears to consist mainly of EW 1's.

 

[Gordonwis]

5 hours ago, Gottardo said:

Another shot taken on the same day at Airolo.

460 000 (before it received "2000" branding) on a train which appears to consist mainly of EW 1's.

 

 

The leading two are EWI, but the other four  visible are EWII

 

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by Gordonwis

[Gottardo]

6 hours ago, Gordonwis said:

 

The leading two are EWI, but the other four  visible are EWII

 

 

But I'm pretty sure the following six were EW l's. 😀

[Satan's Goldfish]

What are the obvious visual differences between an EW I and EW II? The main thing I can spot in that picture is the first 2x coaches have taller windows than coaches 3 and 4.

[MOB 2002]

The easiest immediate way to tell them apart is the shape of the windows between the doors and carriage ends … EW I have tall windows the same height as the other windows in the carriage. EW II have shorter more rectangular windows set high up the bodyside.

 

If they’re together in a train, the roof profile on EW II is different, the cant rail being slightly higher.

 

Mark

[Gordonwis]

1 hour ago, MOB 2002 said:

The easiest immediate way to tell them apart is the shape of the windows between the doors and carriage ends …

 

It depends on where you are viewing them from and if the two types are together. The toilet/vestibule windows is indeed the easy way to tell but that is more especially when viewed individually and/or side on. However, when seen more 'end on' in a long train of mixed versions (eg  in the photo under discussion) the position of the main passenger windows is the more (very) obvious difference. base line of the EWII windows appears lower than on an EWI   

[Frutigen]

Based on my Arnold and Lima models, I used to think the bottom corner of the coach body was an easy way to tell them apart, but looking at my own photos, taken at Basel SBB in 2008, there’s actually a fair bit of variation there. These were all on the same train. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gottardo]

When I said the train consists mainly of EW l's I was using the main window baseline as my guide.

On the EW l the tops of the door handrails are level with the bottom of the main windows but on the EW ll they are higher than the bottom of the windows.

Looking at my original slide I would say that only the third coach is an EW ll.

[icn]

On 05/09/2022 at 10:45, Michanglais said:

I was wondering whether, at the introduction of the re460s/re465s, they hauled trains made up of vehicles other than EWIVs?

 

For instance SBB UICs, international services, etc.

Even in 2019 (maybe even early 2020), RE460's would occasionally appear on trains with a mix of Bpm/EC/EW IV/sometimes panorama carriages (such as the Luzern-Zurich via Enge rush-hour trains). Similarly for consists with one or more Eurofirma carriages. In other words, they'd occasionally be used on trains usually operated by an RE420, but also seemed to be a firm fixture on the Zurich-Basel loco hauled trains in the 2018-2020 timeframe which were a real hodgepodge of stock (thanks to the eternally delayed Twindexx). I also had one at the front of the Berlin/Hamburg Nightjet for the Zurich-Basel portion (this had a couple of SBB seated carriages on the front which I believe were left behind in Basel).

 

As has been pointed out upthread they could appear on domestic Gotthard trains, I'm pretty sure I've occasionally seen them on Basel-Lugano/Locarno trains at random points in time certainly between 2005 and 2018 or 19 - at the beginning of that time range the trains were still a mix of EC, EW IV, Bpm and EW I or II (not sure which anymore), and luggage van - more recently EW IV and EC and Bpm (to be finally replaced by Giruno and Traverso).j

[Satan's Goldfish]

Was watching these for another reason, but suddenly realised they're a good source of RE 465 usage. 4 in the series, this is first:

 

 

There's 460s in there too but mostly on IC push/pull sets.

[Gottardo]

A couple of pics to illustrate how Gotthard Re460 duties changed over the years.

On the Gotthard in the early 1990's Re460's were more likely to be seen hauling freight.

(first pic: Fluelen circa 1994)

In later years (after the Re6/6's were all allocated to the cargo sector) they became purely passenger locos and as "icn" says they could be seen on the Basel/Zürich - Locarno services. (Second pic: Amsteg June 2015)

 

Edited September 10, 2022 by Gottardo

[Gordonwis]

On 09/09/2022 at 20:38, Gottardo said:

When I said the train consists mainly of EW l's I was using the main window baseline as my guide.

On the EW l the tops of the door handrails are level with the bottom of the main windows but on the EW ll they are higher than the bottom of the windows.

Looking at my original slide I would say that only the third coach is an EW ll.

 

Indeed I tend to use the base line as well, but I am now leaning towards your thought - especially as you have looked at your original slide. At the same time, I am doubting my own thought process having found this shot I took (24 May 2008) at Killwangen of three EWIIs, but the middle one is sitting higher than the other two - more intrigue!

 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Gordonwis

[Gordonwis]

Anyone want to discuss this shot? 😄:

 

April 2005 alongside the Walensee. As you can see from the tree covering the coach, I wasn't expecting it!

Edited September 11, 2022 by Gordonwis

[Samedan]

Re460’s were certainly in plentiful supply on passenger duties in central and North East Switzerland in June/July this year. Interlaken Ost is a good place to regularly see them on the IC and EC trains, hauling mostly EWIV stock with driving trailer. 
One thing which struck me this year was the relative scarcity of Re460s in advertising livery. I know that, on the actual railway, the plain red livery was always more plentiful than the advertising liveries when compared with our model railways or the catalogues of the model manufacturers, but I wonder if the more garish liveries are being phased out?

Sadly, Re465s seemed to be rather scarce on the BLS lines I travelled, although that was pretty much restricted to Interlaken-Spiez-Bern this year. And of course, all the lovely blue 465s now seem to be repainted into lime green. 

And another thing, does anyone else find that old blue, green, grey and yellow coach livery absolutely vile? It didn’t seem to last too long, so maybe I’m not in a minority? 

[icn]

11 hours ago, Gordonwis said:

Anyone want to discuss this shot? 😄:

 

April 2005 alongside the Walensee. As you can see from the tree covering the coach, I wasn't expecting it!

These kinds of combinations are surprisingly common, I suspect they were short of one of the double-deck Bt's but I haven't found much information about it.

[Michanglais]

1 hour ago, Samedan said:

Re460’s were certainly in plentiful supply on passenger duties in central and North East Switzerland in June/July this year. Interlaken Ost is a good place to regularly see them on the IC and EC trains, hauling mostly EWIV stock with driving trailer. 
One thing which struck me this year was the relative scarcity of Re460s in advertising livery. I know that, on the actual railway, the plain red livery was always more plentiful than the advertising liveries when compared with our model railways or the catalogues of the model manufacturers, but I wonder if the more garish liveries are being phased out?

Sadly, Re465s seemed to be rather scarce on the BLS lines I travelled, although that was pretty much restricted to Interlaken-Spiez-Bern this year. And of course, all the lovely blue 465s now seem to be repainted into lime green. 

And another thing, does anyone else find that old blue, green, grey and yellow coach livery absolutely vile? It didn’t seem to last too long, so maybe I’m not in a minority? 

 

I make regular trips to Geneva (don't live too far away) and I've actually yet to see an re 460 in advertising livery! 

 

To be honest, I mostly prefer them in plain red. I've got most of the 'classic' advertising liveried models (Danzas, Ciba, Ascom). I never cared for the ones with images/photos on - especially when it was people's faces. I've got a few plain reds and I don't mind having locos in the same livery.

 

In general, it may be just my imagination, but along similar lines to you, I wonder if the non-standard liveries are being phased out. Most things are black, white and red nowadays. I actually like it, to me it gives the railway company a stronger image.