Gordonwis Posted November 18, 2022 Share Posted November 18, 2022 11 hours ago, DIW said: I waited to see if Gordonwis had anything to report before jumping in. This picture is from 1979, and shows Ae4/4 252 pulling a green carriage, but the owning company of the carriage can't be seen. You have highlighted the exact reason I didn't make a more definitive statement - lots of pictures show a bit of a green coach but as that could be BLS not SBB 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordonwis Posted November 18, 2022 Share Posted November 18, 2022 8 hours ago, DIW said: A bit more rummaging, and I've found this 1982 image of Marktgasse in Interlaken with the Ost-West railway line in the distance. I've cropped the picture and zoomed in so that the carriage can be seen more clearly: The RIC in this shot is likely to have been in a longer distance train - exactly the trains that would have been SBB rather than BLS stock. There's a good chance it was on a train from Dortmund. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordonwis Posted November 18, 2022 Share Posted November 18, 2022 I have looked out my 1978 Cooks timetable Through carriages (if not complete trains) are extensively listed under Table 260 Basel - Spiez - Interlaken / Brig - Milano I believe the following are likely to have been SBB not BLS stock, although the coaches from Germany and Netherlands might have been DB: Dortmund - Interlaken Basel - Interlaken Biel - Interlaken Zurich - Interlaken Hoek van Holland - Interlaken Interlaken - Chur (but not vice versa) Zurich - Interlaken 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vectispete Posted November 18, 2022 Share Posted November 18, 2022 So a train would be made up of a mixture of SBB and DB coaches? What is the difference between a RIC and UIC coach? I have seen both referred to. Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chb2488 Posted November 18, 2022 Share Posted November 18, 2022 The coach in DIW‘s first picture could be a BLS D2 or DZ2 as seen in the third picture, the lack of both a gangway and ribs on the roof point towards that direction. Without any further evidence I can‘t say if the set (third picture) DZ - ABi - Bi - SBB Leichtstahl B forms a full local train or if it is a strengthening portion, but it shows the presence of SBB stock even on local trains. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chb2488 Posted November 18, 2022 Share Posted November 18, 2022 1 hour ago, vectispete said: So a train would be made up of a mixture of SBB and DB coaches? What is the difference between a RIC and UIC coach? I have seen both referred to. Pete The coach on the level crossing is a UIC Z2 ABm. The Regolamento Internazionale delle Carrozze sets out the technical standards for international coaches (voltage on the heating line, etc.), while the UIC type system is concerned with the general build of the coaches (number of compartments, aircon, etc.), roughly speaking. The UIC coach above would have been built to the technical standards set out by the RIC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vectispete Posted November 18, 2022 Share Posted November 18, 2022 Hi chb All very interesting and great for me to learn from. May I ask if you could give a few examples of BLS and SBB coach types that could typically make up a rake, both for local and national services to and from Interlaken Ost (circa 1979 would be even more magical!) Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chb2488 Posted November 18, 2022 Share Posted November 18, 2022 Hello Pete From what I‘ve seen, locals would consist of BLS ABi & Bi, a D2 and maybe a SBB Leichtstahl coach thrown in. In the early seventies, they would be pulled by a De 4/5, which would give way to a Ce 4/4 and Ae 4/4 as the decade went on. Semi-fasts would be made up of BLS EW 1 (green and with a Faltenbalg) and a matching BLS D. Below is a picture I‘ve found, which shows an international portion: https://www.sbbarchiv.ch/bild.aspx?VEID=599939&DEID=10&SQNZNR=1 If you‘ve got a lot of time, I recommend Werner Hardmeier‘s series on Drehscheibe Online: https://www.drehscheibe-online.de/foren/read.php?099,9132830 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vectispete Posted November 18, 2022 Share Posted November 18, 2022 Thank you - that gives me the opportunity to create a 'realistic' train. The drehscheibe site is excellent. That will be most enjoyable clicking through with a cuppa on the go. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordonwis Posted November 20, 2022 Share Posted November 20, 2022 (edited) On 18/11/2022 at 11:50, chb2488 said: Below is a picture I‘ve found, which shows an international portion: https://www.sbbarchiv.ch/bild.aspx?VEID=599939&DEID=10&SQNZNR=1 This picture and its caption ties up very nicely indeed with my list from the Cook 1978! ... ...in that, the list I put in my previous post was a simplified version of what was in Cooks (the legendary Cooks t/t 'Notes listed by train number') , and lo and behold one of the trains listed in the very train 942. Cooks (me in fact as I worked for Cooks timetable at that time...) shows 942 composition as follows: 1,2 cl and couchettes 1,2 cl (French) Paris - Pontarlier - Interlaken;1,2cl Basel - Interlaken; conveys (summer dated) couchettes 2cl Calais - Interlaken The 3rd and 4th coaches in the rake are the SNCF coaches from Paris (or Calais). The remaining SBB stock is clearly the Basel - Interlaken coaches. The SNCF coaches are both of the type known as 'UIC' - one is a 2nd/baggage and the other is one of the 'dome roofed' 1,2cl composite couchette cars. Also what is very interesting is 'minimalist' provision of the required rolling stock for the Paris link! - namely just two SNCF coaches providing 2nd class seats, a baggage compartment, and 1st and 2nd class couchettes! Furthermore, the livery of the SNCF coaches (green and silver) proves the photo is late 1970s because after that period SNCF changed the so called 'C160' livery from green / silver to green/light grey. I can also tell you that it is an early morning photo taken at one of my most frequented photos spots, possibly near Kiesen 2/3 way between Bern and Thun. Train 942 departed Bern 08.02 and arrived Thun at 08.24 My pictures in that area in 2012: https://www.flickr.com/photos/59671832@N08/albums/72177720297429657 . . Edited November 20, 2022 by Gordonwis 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vectispete Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 Thank you Gordonwis. I shall try and replicate this very train for my Interlaken layout. Describing the coaches within the train has helped enormously. I see that REE Modeles do both of the SNCF coaches and there appears to be plenty of options to me for the SBB UIC stock. The fact that it is the period I am modelling adds to the authenticity. You speak of the 1978 Cooks timetable. Is it possible to piece together a fairly realistic day at IO if I were to try and obtain a copy of the timetable somewhere from which to extract the relevant information? You touch upon the green/silver versus green/light grey liveries of the SNCF coaches. I assume the 'SNCF' font changed between the epochs of these coaches? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordonwis Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 9 hours ago, vectispete said: You touch upon the green/silver versus green/light grey liveries of the SNCF coaches. I assume the 'SNCF' font changed between the epochs of these coaches? No the logo didn't change. The 'parallelogram' logo was introduced in 1967 at the same time as the coach livery first changed from all over green. The green/silver grey livery first appeared on later build UIC stock from new, all other SNCF pre-corail coaches were subsequently repainted. What did change was the colour. From 1967 the logo and coach lettering was yellow, that then changed to white. So for the late 70s you need stock with yellow pralleogram and lettering. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordonwis Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 11 hours ago, vectispete said: Thank you Gordonwis. I shall try and replicate this very train for my Interlaken layout. Describing the coaches within the train has helped enormously. I see that REE Modeles do both of the SNCF coaches and there appears to be plenty of options to me for the SBB UIC stock. The fact that it is the period I am modelling adds to the authenticity. You speak of the 1978 Cooks timetable. Is it possible to piece together a fairly realistic day at IO if I were to try and obtain a copy of the timetable somewhere from which to extract the relevant information? 1) REE do not do the dome roof couchettes composite. The 2nd baggage is a B5D, REE ref NW150 or NW151 2) The classic SBB international coaches are generally referred to as the SBB 'RIC' coaches. You can look for either the old Austrian Hobbytrain examples or the most recent Kato issues (this has been discussed here quite a lot recently) 3) I will scan the relevant table and post it here when I get a moment Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vectispete Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 (edited) Morning all I am modelling in HO. Looking at your suggestions am I right in thinking that yours are N gauge items? Are these the 2 coaches from the photo? These are REE HO coaches. Edited November 22, 2022 by vectispete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordonwis Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 16 hours ago, vectispete said: Morning all I am modelling in HO. Looking at your suggestions am I right in thinking that yours are N gauge items? Are these the 2 coaches from the photo? These are REE HO coaches. Sorry, some of these discussions perambulate between scales. Yes, these are the two coaches in the picture. I've got a collection of the earlier Roco UIC coaches in HO (possibly cheaper to obtain?) . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vectispete Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 (edited) I didn't know Roco did them too. The REE examples do look very good from the photo. Quite a lot of detail looks like it might be present in the interiors. They also do the baggage coach exactly the same but the 'SNCF' is in white - same size and same font. Was this perhaps a transition to the larger wording placed at the end of the side of the coach which was used on later liveries? I now need to look for some SBB UICs. I think Piko and LS might do some. Then some EW Is and some BLS EW Is. I think i need to warn my wallet of some heavy action! I already have a HAG Re 4/4 II in green, which I assume is pulling the train in the photo we are looking at. Edited November 23, 2022 by vectispete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordonwis Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 (edited) 15 hours ago, vectispete said: I now need to look for some SBB UICs. I think Piko and LS might do some. Then some EW Is and some BLS EW Is. I think i need to warn my wallet of some heavy action! I already have a HAG Re 4/4 II in green, which I assume is pulling the train in the photo we are looking at. It's the same as usual, pay your money and take your choice. If you demand the 'latest word in accuracy' buy the recent models. If you are on a budget, there are cheaper older models around. Jouef did reasonable scale length RIC coaches and Lima did EWIs. However with Lima models it is best to choose the more accurate later generation models (from about 1985 onwards Lima in both HO and N suddenly started producing more accurate less 'toylike' versions of their models but to the uninitiated it can be hard to spot the differences. Nevertheless a good rule of thumb is the longer the model and the lower it sits down on the track the more accurate the model is. Loads of Swiss coaches here: https://zetlandmodelrailways.co.uk/product-category/european-ho-coaches/ Edited November 23, 2022 by Gordonwis Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordonwis Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 16 hours ago, vectispete said: They also do the baggage coach exactly the same but the 'SNCF' is in white - same size and same font. Was this perhaps a transition to the larger wording placed at the end of the side of the coach which was used on later liveries? I had already mentioned this on Monday. The parallelogram logo and coach markings were changed from yellow to white in the early 1980s, around the same time that the silver grey on the Green/grey livery was changed to light concrete grey. However as with all these things, changes took place over a protracted period of time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vectispete Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 (edited) Hi Gordon That you for the Zetland link - not one I had seen before. When you mentioned the change from yellow to white parallelogram I saw this type and assumed this was the change to white parallelogram. Edited November 24, 2022 by vectispete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted December 31, 2022 Share Posted December 31, 2022 OT but imma just leave this here as there's some lovely early/mid 2000s formations. 'Swiss Express' push pull along side double deck push pull. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordonwis Posted January 1, 2023 Share Posted January 1, 2023 On 24/11/2022 at 07:57, vectispete said: Hi Gordon That you for the Zetland link - not one I had seen before. When you mentioned the change from yellow to white parallelogram I saw this type and assumed this was the change to white parallelogram. No, this is the later logo known as 'nouille' (noodle), more commonly as 'Spaghetti' by UK enthusiasts The earlier 'logo encadre' was SNCF in italic within a border. This was originally yellow, then changed to white Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vectispete Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 Can anyone distinguish what type the second coach along is? It appears to be SBB but taller than the first and all other SBB coaches beyond the 2 SNCF coaches. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOB 2002 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 It’s a 1st / 2nd composite (ABm in Swiss parlance) of the UIC X type, a 1960s design primarily intended for international traffic. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vectispete Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 Thanks Mark. I had assumed so but am just finding my feet in all things Swiss still. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mol_PMB Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 (edited) In response to the original question on this thread (appreciating that it was a while ago) I can thoroughly recommend the albums of Werner and Hans-Jorg Brutzer on Flickr, where you will find these five photos and about a million others. (edit: sorry for the exaggeration, the Brutzer albums contain only about a quarter of a million train photos!) To be fair, there are only about 1000 photos of Re460s, in these albums: https://www.flickr.com/photos/42309484@N03/albums/72157697407081361/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/42309484@N03/albums/72157671185315168/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/42309484@N03/albums/72157669142901437/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/42309484@N03/albums/72157671185509448/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/42309484@N03/albums/72157629845403314/ There is similar coverage for other classes should you be interested! Edited February 23 by Mol_PMB corrected exaggeration 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now