O Gauge Class 120 - only a myth?

[Solo]

Whilst speaking to one of the (very friendly) Heljan guys yesterday at Guildex about the Bubblecars (now apparently due Q2 next year) I mentioned the Class 120 Swindon DMUs that I could have sworn Heljan said they were going to make.  He was adamant that no such thing had ever been announced yet I could have sworn that at the same time the 117s/121s were made 'public' the press release also referred to the 120s.  Or is this just a fantasy of mine seeping through to the real world....either way it would seem such a model is no longer (never was?) in the pipeline.

[Nile]

Oh yes it was:

This is still on facebook

[Hal Nail]

1 hour ago, Solo said:

either way it would seem such a model is no longer (never was?) in the pipeline.

 

I might be remembering wrong but I think it was canned when Ben @61661joined and they reviewed the pipeline, started doing re-runs of popular models but also stopped some projects.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Hal Nail

[61661]

1 hour ago, Hal Nail said:

 

I might be remembering wrong but I think it was canned when Ben @61661joined and they reviewed the pipeline, started doing re-runs of popular models but also stopped some projects.

Not how I remember it. Research work on the proposed O gauge Class 120 had already stopped when I joined Heljan in 2018. There was no 'review of the pipeline' or change of strategy at that point, I simply continued the inherited (active) projects and started new ones as required.

 

I'm told that detailed drawings were not available and that makes life very difficult when there is just one preserved vehicle (a buffet car) and no driving cars of any version to survey. The leaflet shown above dates from 2016 when all of the DMU projects would have been at a very early stage. 

 

We've stated on numerous occasions over the last four years that the 120 is not happening. It has never appeared in a Heljan catalogue - the most important indicator of whether a project is happening or not. And yet, like a 'whack-a-mole' it still keeps rearing its head!

 

Not sure who @Solo spoke to at Guildex but I recall only one conversation about the 120 over the weekend and it was along the lines of this post.  

Edited September 5, 2022 by 61661

[Robert Shrives]

IF it has reached Wack -a-mole rates then perhaps the public has voted....  might get picked up by another major O gauge player... 

Robert 

[Halvarras]

2 minutes ago, Robert Shrives said:

IF it has reached Wack -a-mole rates then perhaps the public has voted....  might get picked up by another major O gauge player... 

Robert 

 

But they'll face the same lack of detailed drawings and preserved vehicles.......

[Nile]

With no RTR model in any scale just how much demand/interest is there in one of these?

[Phil Parker]

14 minutes ago, Nile said:

With no RTR model in any scale just how much demand/interest is there in one of these?

 

Silver Fox may have an idea: http://silverfoxmodels.co.uk/british-rail-class-120-swindon-cross-country-dmu/

[Hal Nail]

1 hour ago, 61661 said:

Not how I remember it. Research work on the proposed O gauge Class 120 had already stopped when I joined Heljan in 2018. There was no 'review of the pipeline' or change of strategy at that point, I simply continued the inherited (active) projects and started new ones as required.

 

 

Thanks Ben.

Next time I give you credit for an improved approach I'll check first! :)

 

edit: I was probably remembering the Collett goods project being stopped. Easy to confuse the two!

Edited September 5, 2022 by Hal Nail

[D9020 Nimbus]

33 minutes ago, Nile said:

With no RTR model in any scale just how much demand/interest is there in one of these?

In the days of the wish-list poll ISTR it scored quite highly for both OO and N.

[Halvarras]

13 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

In the days of the wish-list poll ISTR it scored quite highly for both OO and N.

 

Maybe because these units were spread far and wide so were part of many people's railway scene. Same with the Met-Cam Class 101 and Derby Class 116. I always thought Hornby got it wrong with the Calder Valley Class 110, a very good model for its time but the wrong subject - yes it was a nice-looking unit, surely why it was chosen, but its restriction to a small geographical area must have counted against it amongst all those modellers who had specific interests nowhere near the Calder Valley. 

[RANGERS]

2 hours ago, 61661 said:

Not how I remember it. Research work on the proposed O gauge Class 120 had already stopped when I joined Heljan in 2018. There was no 'review of the pipeline' or change of strategy at that point, I simply continued the inherited (active) projects and started new ones as required.

 

I'm told that detailed drawings were not available and that makes life very difficult when there is just one preserved vehicle (a buffet car) and no driving cars of any version to survey. The leaflet shown above dates from 2016 when all of the DMU projects would have been at a very early stage. 

 

We've stated on numerous occasions over the last four years that the 120 is not happening. It has never appeared in a Heljan catalogue - the most important indicator of whether a project is happening or not. And yet, like a 'whack-a-mole' it still keeps rearing its head!

 

Not sure who @Solo spoke to at Guildex but I recall only one conversation about the 120 over the weekend and it was along the lines of this post.  

I keep an eye on whats happening in the 0 Gauge diesel world and had a specific interest in this one and since it was first announced, I don't recall seeing any reference to the project having been canned. Lack of drawings would make life more difficult but not insurmountable and as there have been at least five kits in three scales (N-MTK; 00-MTK, Silverlink, DC Kits; 0-MTK), there must be enough reference material. In any case, if nobody else knows, nobody can justifiably say its wrong!

 

It seems naive for Heljan to try and dismiss an earlier announcement as fake news.

 

 

 

[brian daniels]

I have ordered a J&M Hughes 7mm 120 kit at Stafford.

[Morello Cherry]

1 hour ago, Halvarras said:

 

Maybe because these units were spread far and wide so were part of many people's railway scene. Same with the Met-Cam Class 101 and Derby Class 116. I always thought Hornby got it wrong with the Calder Valley Class 110, a very good model for its time but the wrong subject - yes it was a nice-looking unit, surely why it was chosen, but its restriction to a small geographical area must have counted against it amongst all those modellers who had specific interests nowhere near the Calder Valley. 

 

The 120 also appeared in areas that are popular to model - ie Cambrian Coast, Cornwall, Devon, Scotland etc.

 

A good 120 thread here for anyone who wants a 120 fix.

 

 

I am surprised given some of the things that are available in RTR that there isn't one available not withstanding the lack of drawings (I find it hard to believe that the 120s are unique in this respect and that lack of drawings have prevented other things being modelled).

[Fishoutofwater]

1 hour ago, RANGERS said:

Silverlink

Did you mean Silver Fox Models?

 

Have several of their OO versions, and v. nice they are too.

Surely upscaling to O is not beyond capability

Edited September 5, 2022 by Fishoutofwater
FFS

[61661]

4 hours ago, Robert Shrives said:

IF it has reached Wack -a-mole rates then perhaps the public has voted....  might get picked up by another major O gauge player... 

Robert 

Perhaps you’re taking the ‘whack-a-mole’ metaphor too literally. It happens about once a year. 

[61661]

3 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

 

Thanks Ben.

Next time I give you credit for an improved approach I'll check first! :)

 

edit: I was probably remembering the Collett goods project being stopped. Easy to confuse the two!

Things have changed a lot since that initial transition period. The 2251 was cancelled for different reasons. 

[Robert Shrives]

I can understand  that the suite of tooling required would be large for a 3 car unit and in O these would have some large tools so serious investment and a long if ever time to get money back so can see a desire to back off positional statement of years past.  Have to say I often pass a field -currently two rams in residence but normally enough mole hills that make it look like a mole town!   

 

Hopefully a 119/ 120 /123/124/ 126 sort of  cross country/ Intercity unit will appear at some time for those not willing/able to build kits but across the scales are kits and now 3D prints that all form a good basis and I am sufficiently old to recall the fleetline/MTK 2mm  kits of yesteryear.   As I have said it is easy to spend somebody else`s money and as in football the way to make a fortune is to start with a big fortune!

 

Thanks for all Heljan have done in making a great range of rtr O gauge.

Robert   

Edited September 5, 2022 by Robert Shrives
sense.

[61661]

1 hour ago, RANGERS said:

It seems naive for Heljan to try and dismiss an earlier announcement as fake news.

Can’t see where that was said or even inferred, but happy to  be proved wrong if you can point me to the source.

For the avoidance of doubt it was never really ‘announced’ as such - no item listing, liveries, vehicle IDs or item codes were ever allocated or advertised and the only time Heljan ever mentioned it public was very briefly on that flyer in 2016. In a previous life I remember seeing a poster (probably at the same show as the flyer) on the Heljan stand referring to it as a ‘possible project’ (or similar wording). 
It’s sad that it didn’t develop into a full-blown project but, for the reasons mentioned earlier, the decision not to pursue it was taken a long time ago. 
 

Hope this helps.

 

Ben 

[Solo]

Well at least I wasn't imagining it, the advertising poster above was the one I remember too.  I hadn't realised Heljan had stated the project wasn't happening but then as a relatively recent convert to 'O' I wasn't keeping such a close eye on the 'O' gauge scene until recently.  I thought the '120' would have been a really useful model due to how wide-ranging they were - but then saying that a '101' would be even more so.  I'm probably not alone in dipping a toe into 7mm waters due to the quality of RTR stuff now available - I'm not really up for a kit-built DMU, though I have seen some very impressive efforts.  In reality I'd just love a DMU in 'O'.  I think Dapol's Bubblecars are truly lovely models with sublime detailing but I've been holding off due to all the reliability issues with the mechanism (something which Dapol are apparently going to rectify in the next run).

[61661]

11 minutes ago, Solo said:

 In reality I'd just love a DMU in 'O'.

Let’s see how the Class 117 sells. We’d be keen to look at other DMUs in O if there’s sufficient demand. We have one obvious candidate currently being developed for OO*. That would be very nice in O too - IF there’s demand. 
 

 

*THIS IS NOT AN ANNOUNCEMENT. ;-) 

[RANGERS]

1 hour ago, 61661 said:

Can’t see where that was said or even inferred, but happy to  be proved wrong if you can point me to the source.

For the avoidance of doubt it was never really ‘announced’ as such - no item listing, liveries, vehicle IDs or item codes were ever allocated or advertised and the only time Heljan ever mentioned it public was very briefly on that flyer in 2016. In a previous life I remember seeing a poster (probably at the same show as the flyer) on the Heljan stand referring to it as a ‘possible project’ (or similar wording). 
It’s sad that it didn’t develop into a full-blown project but, for the reasons mentioned earlier, the decision not to pursue it was taken a long time ago. 
 

Hope this helps.

 

Ben 

I refer you back to Solo’s initial post and his discussions with the Heljan team at the weekend, which suggests it was denied it ever existed.

 

As to whether it was ever “announced”, I guess that depends on what you might consider to be an “announcement” but publishing details of a product and saying that “plans are now in place for the development of….two and three car versions of the Swindon Criss Country class 120…” must come pretty close. If it’s not an “announcement”, what is it?

 

 

[Phil Parker]

41 minutes ago, RANGERS said:

I refer you back to Solo’s initial post and his discussions with the Heljan team at the weekend, which suggests it was denied it ever existed.

 

As to whether it was ever “announced”, I guess that depends on what you might consider to be an “announcement” but publishing details of a product and saying that “plans are now in place for the development of….two and three car versions of the Swindon Criss Country class 120…” must come pretty close. If it’s not an “announcement”, what is it?

 

 

 

Does it matter? Ben is the Heljan team you refer to in your first paragraph, so you can be confident he knows what he's talking about. It's not happening. 

 

And if it was, and the decided to upscale an MTK kit to do it, we'd need a bigger server for the posts. 

[Solo]

41 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

Ben is the Heljan team you refer to in your first paragraph

To be fair it wasn't Ben I spoke to at the weekend, it was his colleague (Kim?).  But I agree that it matters not, Ben's reply here today has made the position fairly clear as regards this model.

[mdvle]

5 hours ago, RANGERS said:

As to whether it was ever “announced”, I guess that depends on what you might consider to be an “announcement” but publishing details of a product and saying that “plans are now in place for the development of….two and three car versions of the Swindon Criss Country class 120…” must come pretty close. If it’s not an “announcement”, what is it?

 

It's an Advanced Notice (as the title on the flyer states) that they were starting to work on it as a project.  But as noted by Ben Heljan never published any details (aka prices, product codes, liveries, etc.) that would be an official announcement.