O Gauge Class 120 - only a myth?

[mdvle]

10 hours ago, RANGERS said:

Lack of drawings would make life more difficult but not insurmountable

 

Drawings and a prototype to measure and/or scan make things a lot easier.  If neither is available doesn't make a project insurmountable but does complicate things enough that it will often simply be easier (and less expensive in development costs) to move onto a different project.

 

[Hal Nail]

2 hours ago, mdvle said:

it will often simply be easier (and less expensive in development costs) to move onto a different project.

 

More than 2 minutes spent on any wish list thread should have warned you the average punter has literally no grasp of this concept!

[Legend]

I didnt realise the 120s didnt make it to preservation , at least driving cars.  That seems a a shame considering all the 101, 108s we have and the brilliantly restored 126 at Bo'ness .  I'm assuming asbestos had something to do with it .

 

 

[two tone green]

14 hours ago, 61661 said:

Let’s see how the Class 117 sells. We’d be keen to look at other DMUs in O if there’s sufficient demand. We have one obvious candidate currently being developed for OO*. That would be very nice in O too - IF there’s demand. 
 

 

*THIS IS NOT AN ANNOUNCEMENT. ;-) 

You need to get it out to answer that question. 

[Downendian]

It’s a shame that no class 120 units are being considered in any gauge. They were next to class 101/116/117/119 the most common sightings in the Bristol area, and of course were also based at Derby/Haymarket/Inverness I think.

Apart from the Swindon cabs they were very similar to class 119s of which 3 vehicles survive. 
I have some kits (Craftsman and Silver fox) to build them on the roundtuit pile, but was vaguely hoping for one to appear RTR before attempting them.

I’ve always been puzzled by the gaping holes in the first generation DMU offerings RTR, tooling costs and lack of prototypes  being major obstacles I assume. I have a Swindon class 123 already on the kit building pile.

Neil 

[Southernman46]

Splendid, at least that's solved, I shall re-allocate the saved funds for this and get the Blue Class 117 instead and pretend that the Weymouth - Bristol's through Maiden Newton were formed of those 👍

[61661]

On 06/09/2022 at 11:01, two tone green said:

You need to get it out to answer that question. 

We certainly do! It hasn't moved nearly as quickly as we'd like (various reasons, including the big global ones) but final deco samples are being prepared now. Assuming they are OK we should be able to go into production after we've reviewed the samples. 

[two tone green]

42 minutes ago, 61661 said:

We certainly do! It hasn't moved nearly as quickly as we'd like (various reasons, including the big global ones) but final deco samples are being prepared now. Assuming they are OK we should be able to go into production after we've reviewed the samples. 

Thanks for the update, much appreciated. 
Fingers crossed for a nice Xmas present this year. 

[Nile]

A RTR model announced today, but in N gauge:

 

Well it's a start. Note them using the preserved 126 as a reference.

 

[muddys-blues]

On 06/09/2022 at 10:53, Legend said:

I didnt realise the 120s didnt make it to preservation , at least driving cars.  That seems a a shame considering all the 101, 108s we have and the brilliantly restored 126 at Bo'ness .  I'm assuming asbestos had something to do with it .

 

 

surely Heljan could scan some of the 126 at Bo’ness, as they are a related unit.

 

J&M Hughes do a 120, I have a couple of pairs of their resin cabs, I am sure if Ben liaised with Micheal from J&M he could knock up a 1:1 version for Heljan to scan ? 😉.

 

Craig 

[SC55015]

On 05/09/2022 at 06:32, 61661 said:

I'm told that detailed drawings were not available and that makes life very difficult when there is just one preserved vehicle (a buffet car) and no driving cars of any version to survey.

When we restored the Class 126 we were able to easily get copies of the original Swindon drawings from RDDS at Derby. And although no 120 power cars survive, the Class 126 has many shared qualities with the 120s that would make is a reasonable substitute. The body profile, DMBS cab shape, solebar design, window / door styles are all the same.

[MJI]

On 06/09/2022 at 11:24, Downendian said:

It’s a shame that no class 120 units are being considered in any gauge. They were next to class 101/116/117/119 the most common sightings in the Bristol area, and of course were also based at Derby/Haymarket/Inverness I think.

Apart from the Swindon cabs they were very similar to class 119s of which 3 vehicles survive. 
I have some kits (Craftsman and Silver fox) to build them on the roundtuit pile, but was vaguely hoping for one to appear RTR before attempting them.

I’ve always been puzzled by the gaping holes in the first generation DMU offerings RTR, tooling costs and lack of prototypes  being major obstacles I assume. I have a Swindon class 123 already on the kit building pile.

Neil 

 

Just found this thread.

 

I am beginning to think that there must be some law banning the production of Swindon DMUs.

 

On 25/09/2022 at 22:35, SC55015 said:

When we restored the Class 126 we were able to easily get copies of the original Swindon drawings from RDDS at Derby. And although no 120 power cars survive, the Class 126 has many shared qualities with the 120s that would make is a reasonable substitute. The body profile, DMBS cab shape, solebar design, window / door styles are all the same.

 

It is basicilly tilted over Hawksworth profile.

[Covkid]

On 18/03/2023 at 17:10, MJI said:

Just found this thread.

 

I am beginning to think that there must be some law banning the production of Swindon DMUs.

 

It is basicilly tilted over Hawksworth profile.

 

I think that same law applies to class 116s !!!

No experience of tool setting but I imagine it would be easier to create a tool for a 116, then maybe slides to produce the class 117 headcode box etc. 

 

But no KMRC and Bachmann chose to follow the Lima class 117 route.

 

I am thinking of picking up a Bachmann 117 and half a dozen assorted razor saws and files !!!

[MJI]

29 minutes ago, Covkid said:

 

I think that same law applies to class 116s !!!

No experience of tool setting but I imagine it would be easier to create a tool for a 116, then maybe slides to produce the class 117 headcode box etc. 

 

But no KMRC and Bachmann chose to follow the Lima class 117 route.

 

I am thinking of picking up a Bachmann 117 and half a dozen assorted razor saws and files !!!

 

116 is an easy conversion, if you can do a Lima DMS conversion, a 116 trailer is not much harder.

 

Headcode boxes, 4 bits of plastic card and some filler.

 

Underframes same, 116 117 118 all used same GAs

[VIA185]

Searching through some old file boxes today I found that I have BR drawings and official photographs of the Swindon cross-country units, obtained from the old BR/OPC archive operation, when I was considering making a kit. In the end I built the Craftsman conversion on a Lima 3-car set. Where there's a will, there's a way....... (CJL)

[Pteremy]

On 11/04/2023 at 09:01, VIA185 said:

Searching through some old file boxes today I found that I have BR drawings and official photographs of the Swindon cross-country units, obtained from the old BR/OPC archive operation, when I was considering making a kit. In the end I built the Craftsman conversion on a Lima 3-car set. Where there's a will, there's a way....... (CJL)

 

So are they the 'missing' drawings, or drawings with less detail for e.g. internal layout or livery purposes?

[VIA185]

 

30 minutes ago, Pteremy said:

 

So are they the 'missing' drawings, or drawings with less detail for e.g. internal layout or livery purposes?

They are GAs with enough detail and dimensions to make a reasonable model, in the absence of anything better.(CJL)

[Covkid]

11 hours ago, Pteremy said:

So are they the 'missing' drawings, or drawings with less detail for e.g. internal layout or livery purposes?

 

10 hours ago, VIA185 said:

They are GAs with enough detail and dimensions to make a reasonable model, in the absence of anything better.(CJL)

 

This is the bit I am struggling with. Off the top of my head I can think of at least a dozen OO models which have been or are being produced of which no 1:1 example survived.  One rumour I heard was that Kernow commissioned a Fred Phipps gauge 3 A1A A1A Warship in order to develop the tooling for the OO version.  No idea whether there is any truth in it but there are no fullsize surviving

 

NBL D6xx "Warship"

NBL D84xx  (class 16)

NBL D61xx (class 21 or 29)

NBL D63xx (class 22)

Lion

Falcon

Kestrel

D10800

10201-D10203

10001 and 10001

GT3

Fell

 

etc etc

 

So it is possible to create an OO model without a prototype surviving - especially as has already been mentioned, the class 126 guys at Bo'ness have a 1:1 Swindon built class 126 and a load of useful drawings.

 

However, it is clear from what Ben has said, the 120 is not happening from Heljan.  Perhaps we need to lobby another model manufacturer and hope the Swindon Cross Country unit is not tainted, in the way the BR class 74 seems to have become following the unfulfilled promises from an ex model manufacturer

 

[jjb1970]

I wonder if it's a case of skills evolving among designers and some skills dropping away as a result?

 

Model designers have produced models of complex subjects without access to the original prototypes or 3D scans for decades and those who were good at it were capable of producing models which stand comparison with those made using the latest technology. However if a new generation has grown up reliant on tools like scanning it would be more surprising if they didn't start to question the old ways using whatever drawings and photographs are available.

 

I used to be involved with shaft alignment for ships. For many decades it was done using taut piano wire and mechanical measuring instruments. There's still older guys in Korea and Japan who prefer doing it that way. However there's now a generation which grew up with laser alignment instruments who don't know how to do it any other way. There's nothing wrong with using the best available technology (indeed, it's entirely sensible), but it's not impossible to work without it.

 

 

[Hal Nail]

1 hour ago, jjb1970 said:

I wonder if it's a case of skills evolving among designers and some skills dropping away as a result?

 

Model designers have produced models of complex subjects without access to the original prototypes or 3D scans for decades

Or perhaps this just wasn't the main or only reason they aren't doing it.

 

They will do what they think will make the best returns so there are clearly just better options.

[Covkid]

10 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

Or perhaps this just wasn't the main or only reason they aren't doing it.

 

They will do what they think will make the best returns so there are clearly just better options.

 

You are absolutely right Hal. Maybe GT3 and the Fell were a step too far for Heljan who have done many of the other prototype locos, although let us not forget KMRC who have produced much other "odd" stuff including the SR EE 1 Co Co 1s and the Western Region NBL "warships".  At his juncture we know that although KMRC commissioned the two car "thumper", they have never produced the much wanted centre car. So perhaps a three car SCC would be a bridge too far for them.   

[jjb1970]

18 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

Or perhaps this just wasn't the main or only reason they aren't doing it.

 

They will do what they think will make the best returns so there are clearly just better options.

 

True, but it does seem to be an argument used more when some prototypes are mentioned.

[Pteremy]

I have wondered if, in the absence of existing prototypes and/or reliable drawings, there is a concern about the critical reception if they 'got something wrong'. Design must be more labour intensify in the absence of such things, and the risk of an inaccurate judgement call/compromise that much higher. Having said that I would have thought that interest in the Class 120 is sufficiently high (in 00 at any rate) that sales would be strong even if the model isn't perfect.