Desire or lack of for 7mm 2nd Generation DMU's

[brynna79]

I am considering the jump from US HO to UK O and find it interesting that there are yet to be any RTR 2nd Gen DMU's such as the 150, 153, 156 and 158's.  Would such units be popular amongst current O Gauge modelers.  Given the time frame that they have operated in, they would span a large timeframe.  Clearly, this is my opinion and the manufacturers know there demographic and markets best, but I would imagine the 153 would sell well - given its single car size and range of liveries.  Being in my 40's, most of my memories are from the 90's onwards, although more from the noughties when I took a real interest.  

 

Some of the hesitation for me at the moment is my liking of up to date stock, but I must admit to liking the BR Sectorization stock that Heljan have been kicking out recently. 

 

Cheers

[muddys-blues]

Hello Bryn, we was discussing this at Guildex on Saturday, seeing as Dapol has a 63’ chassis on the market now, and it is soon to be joined by Heljan as well.

 

I did mute the 153 would be a good start, if you like kit building, Peter Clark Models does do some of the 2nd gen range in his kits.

 

i would imagine it may only be a matter of time before a RTR model is announced.

 

Best regards

Craig 

[brynna79]

Thanks Craig.  It's interesting that they chose the Bubble cars and I guess that the uptake on BR blue/Sector liveried layouts means they would sell well.    The 153 would certainly be a good entry to more modern machinery, and I guess that in time, we may see these appear.  

 

Haven't stumbled upon the PCR website before and the prices seem reasonable for what you are getting, but I, like others, wouldn't even know where to start with such kits, guessing the skill required being more than a plastic kit. The painting of liveries would be the most daunting aspect for me.  Have you built any of the kits?  The DMU's look very good indeed and I am surprised that a Voyager/Super Voyager are available as well, given the size of these units! 

 

Cheers

Bryn

[fail safe]

It's been an issue for a while because 0 gauge modelling has been dominated for so long by steam era modellers perpetuated by their society being run by elderly gentlemen on the whole who have that pre 1968 interest. There is a lot of good RTR now in 0 gauge and it's beginning to change with MIOG promoting modern image, and we will soon have the forthcoming Dapol class 66 out next year, and there is the more recent liveries applied to some Heljan diesels. You can buy a lot of modern infrastructure, colour signals, portacabins, concrete sleeper track base etc but not modern units yet.  Modern RTR wagons is another issue. Although there are some kits of wagons and units they are not for everybody. The more of us that ask and enthuse about real modern the better! 

 

[fail safe]

6 minutes ago, brynna79 said:

Thanks Craig.  It's interesting that they chose the Bubble cars and I guess that the uptake on BR blue/Sector liveried layouts means they would sell well.    The 153 would certainly be a good entry to more modern machinery, and I guess that in time, we may see these appear.  

 

Haven't stumbled upon the PCR website before and the prices seem reasonable for what you are getting, but I, like others, wouldn't even know where to start with such kits, guessing the skill required being more than a plastic kit. The painting of liveries would be the most daunting aspect for me.  Have you built any of the kits?  The DMU's look very good indeed and I am surprised that a Voyager/Super Voyager are available as well, given the size of these units! 

 

Cheers

Bryn

The Peter Clark kits are difficult even to an experienced modeller as they are a bit old now, but to be honest some people have made good models from them. 

 

This is a good place to start for traders but you will have to filter out those who do modern although  allot of stuff is cross eras:

 

http://www.gaugeoguild.com/traders/Traders_links.aspx

 

 

[Night Train]

I would have thought a 205 thumper would be a good choice.

[brynna79]

16 hours ago, fail safe said:

The Peter Clark kits are difficult even to an experienced modeller as they are a bit old now, but to be honest some people have made good models from them. 

 

This is a good place to start for traders but you will have to filter out those who do modern although  allot of stuff is cross eras:

 

http://www.gaugeoguild.com/traders/Traders_links.aspx

 

 

Thanks for the link. I registered for the free month trial last night to see a bit more of the guild.  Two articles in the forum really caught my attention.  the first being the amazing work and build of a Class 195 in Northern livery from scratch by one of the members.  I can only say wow, the build was done in 6 months and looked truly amazing given the scale and materials that had been used. Certainly leagues above my skill ability.  There are some epically skilled and talented people out there as I have seen on this forum as well.  The other was the lack of modern image, even within the BR Blue and sectorisation times compared to here. There was a forum discussion on the start up of MIOG and the impact this may have had as well.  Without forming an opinion, the forums were a wonderful place to see how skilled these people are, but most of what I was outside my range of interest.  I will continue to review, before committing to joining, but certainly a useful place to see so much regarding O Gauge. 

 

I think I will remain RTR initially, then maybe in a few years time, try a kit or two, maybe wagons first :-) 

 

Cheers

[brynna79]

16 hours ago, Night Train said:

I would have thought a 205 thumper would be a good choice.

Agreed, they are quite relevant to what other RTR stock is available.  NSE is a draw for me, even though I have no memory of this time. 

[fail safe]

1 hour ago, brynna79 said:

Thanks for the link. I registered for the free month trial last night to see a bit more of the guild.  Two articles in the forum really caught my attention.  the first being the amazing work and build of a Class 195 in Northern livery from scratch by one of the members.  I can only say wow, the build was done in 6 months and looked truly amazing given the scale and materials that had been used. Certainly leagues above my skill ability.  There are some epically skilled and talented people out there as I have seen on this forum as well.  The other was the lack of modern image, even within the BR Blue and sectorisation times compared to here. There was a forum discussion on the start up of MIOG and the impact this may have had as well.  Without forming an opinion, the forums were a wonderful place to see how skilled these people are, but most of what I was outside my range of interest.  I will continue to review, before committing to joining, but certainly a useful place to see so much regarding O Gauge. 

 

I think I will remain RTR initially, then maybe in a few years time, try a kit or two, maybe wagons first :-) 

 

Cheers

If I'm to be frank your best bet is the two main Facebook groups MIOG, 'Modern image 0 Gauge group', and '0 Gauge Modern Image Group'. Both have like minded people and much RTR interest. The Guild does have a lot of general interest but vey little modern image banter. Just that class 195 which is an exception. Best of luck anyway.

[brynna79]

21 minutes ago, fail safe said:

If I'm to be frank your best bet is the two main Facebook groups MIOG, 'Modern image 0 Gauge group', and '0 Gauge Modern Image Group'. Both have like minded people and much RTR interest. The Guild does have a lot of general interest but vey little modern image banter. Just that class 195 which is an exception. Best of luck anyway.

I seem to have got that feeling from some of the comments and content of the group and forums. Was aware of MIOG, but not the other, so will reactivate my FB account and take a look.  Cheers

[djparkins]

It is a pity that the term 'Modern Image' is still used to describe anything from a pilot scheme diesel, a Rail Bue Class 47 hauling blue/grey Mk.1 stock, or a first generation DMU - through to a Class 66. Only one is modern image, and anyway, the use of the word image would not be tolerated if it applied to steam-era models. It kind of implies that modellers of steam make scale models and those making anything later just make things in an image of what is.

 

Perhaps I should get out my masters [exquisitely made by Philip Elverd] for the 150/153/156 & 158 dmus that I own, and finish off the resin and etched work to go with them. Problem is that I know that just as soon as we complete the work, some RTR outfit will announce one! And anyway with full internal bogie detail and traction motors + full underfloor box and engine detail + exhaust systems, it would probably all be dubbed 'too complicated' - still might just do it though, for the hell of it.

 

David Parkins

Modern Motive Power

www.djparkins.com

[Hal Nail]

35 minutes ago, djparkins said:

it would probably all be dubbed 'too complicated' - still might just do it though, for the hell of it.

 

 

I would be the first to admit i have a slightly unhealthy disregard for the massive increase in r-t-r. Obviously it has put pressure on kit manufacturers - I like weathering and painting more than the build, so am not adverse these days to buying an r-t-r product such as Dapols 16T rather than one of the kits around and I'm sure thats true of many but as a result we will have less kit choice in future.

 

Such has been rapid influx that there is now a significant number of people who treat 7mm like a Hornby trainset and just plonk things on the track and off they go. We are starting to get requests for opening doors, smoke units and other gimmicks and I fear these will be rolled out at the expense of detail and fidelity.

 

What I cant quite get my head around is the original demand for detailed products must still be there? Or was it never there in sufficient numbers anyway and the hobby is just evolving down the more commercially viable path?

 

As to 2nd generation, traditionally first generation had more appeal as both green and blue era modellers would buy and simple economics means you go for the thing with the broadest sales potential. As time goes on trends change though: we have seen 60s and 70s overtaking GWR branch lines as the most popular and in a few years I could see sectorisation being the new thing.

 

Edit: I should stress i dont have a problem with how others chose to enjoy a hobby. The issue is there probably aren't enough in either camp for all our needs to be met. And being a miserable git i prefer my way, naturally!

 

 

Edited September 9, 2022 by Hal Nail

[37114]

With the proliferation of 1980's and 1990's era locos and stock from Heljan now, I would be amazed if a 150,153 or 156 isn't announced in the next couple of years. I guess Dapol maybe tempted by a Pacer family as I believe they have done a 2mm one?

 

[fail safe]

Yes its no longer 60s and 80s thats popular; the main interest is currently 80s and after, if social networking is to be believed. Dapols forthcoming 66 will change things significantly. RTR doesn't mean lack of detail, at least that you can see, and the after market interest is significant, from weathering and detailing to complete bashing. The RTR guys follow demand, so many of the new Heljan liveries are 80s +

 

And people still refer to 'modern image' because thats what Cyril Freezer called it. It's just a term like 'modern at'. Like that, it will probably wear off and become  'post modern'  when we get 0 gauge models of trains made in this century!

 

 

[djparkins]

53 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

 

I would be the first to admit i have a slightly unhealthy disregard for the massive increase in r-t-r. Obviously it has put pressure on kit manufacturers - I like weathering and painting more than the build, so am not adverse these days to buying an r-t-r product such as Dapols 16T rather than one of the kits around and I'm sure thats true of many but as a result we will have less kit choice in future.

 

Such has been rapid influx that there is now a significant number of people who treat 7mm like a Hornby trainset and just plonk things on the track and off they go. We are starting to get requests for opening doors, smoke units and other gimmicks and I fear these will be rolled out at the expense of detail and fidelity.

 

What I cant quite get my head around is the original demand for detailed products must still be there? Or was it never there in sufficient numbers anyway and the hobby is just evolving down the more commercially viable path?

 

 

 

I too have plenty of RTR - trouble is once I buld a kit I have to sell on the RTR as it kind of looks, well plastic, beside the metal!

 

I suppose it depends on how closely or sharply you view a model and how thoroughly you also know the real thing. A common 16 ton Mineral wagon in 7mm should have sides around .011" thick to be scale, and even at .012", people say the sides on our own MMP family of mineral wagons are too thin! They most certainly are not. But once you know those wagons intimately then the Dapol RTR one just doesn't cut it [at least for me]. I guess it all depends. If you want to model a 9F with 30+ 16 tonners whizzing by, then Dapol is fine. If you want one or two in your rural coal yard where the vehicles are as much lineside fixtures as wagons, then you might want ours - with the thin edges of the body top turn-over etc. But there is very definitely a place for both.

 

Believe me there was a time when the demand for detailed kits was there, and folks like myself and one or two others did very well at that time. I still do well, as I've diversified into military kits, where building and detailing models is still king and across a much wider range of ages than in O gauge. Plus in military modelling the world is your market. 70% approx of everything we currently sell goes abroad.

 

I'm not sure either that the model railway market is evolving down a more commercially viable path. Just look at how most RTR stuff ends up being heavily discounted - see Hattons latest offers on Class 50s and 60s. It was the same with their GWR Moguls, so it isn't just a diesel thing. The more likely conclusion is that no one is making much money now in railways, be it from kits or RTR.

 

Finally I would make the point that if you feel there has been a rapid influx of RTR up to now, then I don't think it is going to be anything like so rapid in the future. Rising labour and transport costs the world over, political instability, and the consequent premium on raw materials will all take good care of that. Don't sell off your soldering irons just yet!

 

DJP/MMP

 

[D9020 Nimbus]

Dapol have done the 153 and 156 in N, as well as the 142 Pacer, but scaling up from N to O might be tricky.

[djparkins]

7 hours ago, fail safe said:

Yes its no longer 60s and 80s thats popular; the main interest is currently 80s and after, if social networking is to be believed. Dapols forthcoming 66 will change things significantly. RTR doesn't mean lack of detail, at least that you can see, and the after market interest is significant, from weathering and detailing to complete bashing. The RTR guys follow demand, so many of the new Heljan liveries are 80s +

 

And people still refer to 'modern image' because thats what Cyril Freezer called it. It's just a term like 'modern at'. Like that, it will probably wear off and become  'post modern'  when we get 0 gauge models of trains made in this century!

 

 

 

Yes and it is those very locos and liveries that Hattons are now discounting - so they actually follow what they think might be the demand.

 

The Dapol 66 is, I agree, potentially a game changer, but it wasn't in evidence at the GOG do last weekend as I understand it, and I cannot see how they are going to produce a large complex locomotive to the spec. they have given, and comparable in detail to their smaller locos, for the price quoted. I feel the price must end up being significantly more. Now I want seven of them, so I hope I'm wrong! I'll have to wait until Hattons discount them heavily!

 

Then we need current freight stock - which does not mean 'banana' shaped resin wagons. We need fidelity to works drawings and thinness of edges. Plus on modern wagons you really can see lots of underfloor detail. Simon Varnam begun work on a range of five modern wagons. He showed off the bogies for some of them, and they were works of art - but got dispirited and gave up when he was told in no uncertain terms on these forums that they were too complicated! Simon can no longer re-consider this decision following two strokes, but I am doing my very best to resurrect the project. And I'm not the sensitive soul he is!

Edited September 9, 2022 by djparkins
correction

[Hal Nail]

2 hours ago, djparkins said:

Just look at how most RTR stuff ends up being heavily discounted

 

Some interesting points youve raised.

 

I slightly disagree with this one tho. Yes some of the more expensive models have not sold so well, the GWR AEC railcar for example (not competitively priced compared to Dapols bubble car). The 60 is a bit more niche than some and sold badly the first time - I was a bit surprised they re-ran it.

 

The 50 tho is on its third batch in short order. I think by any measure that one has done well and Dapol's 57xx and 14xx shot through the door. Interestingly the 45xx, priced nearer to the mogul, is already hard to get in some liveries.

 

This all suggests to me, given the obvious space contraints, larger stuff is generally still not as popular. Which brings us back to the viability of a 2 or 3 car 2nd generation unit...

Edited September 9, 2022 by Hal Nail

[D6775]

Now, where to go with this............

 

Modern Image, yes does seem to cover everything from c1968 (in my mind) to the present day. Maybe it should be the 'Deisel and Electric Era' as I see pre 68' as 'Steam Era'. If you want to go truly Modern then a 66 is c25 years old and an even older design. 68's 88's and 195 units etc. Anyway, that's buy the buy and not something to get into here!

 

2nd Gen DMU's. Yes, they seem to have been overlooked so far. I suspect the main manufacturers will wait and see how Dapols 66 fairs, I have heard rumour that something is in the pipeline, but no idea what or from who. I have a Peter Clark 156 and it looks good, I just need to build it! Some of Peters other kits look good, but as has been said you do need some skill to build them! I would be interested to hear/see more of your potential 2nd gen kits @djparkins

 

Lastly, as I am part of the core group at MIOG, the FB page is a great place to ask for info and a sharing of minds. I will be at the Stafford MRC show in a couple of weeks time with our 'Roadshow' set up for our exhibition next year. So if anyone wants a chat please stop by, I'll be up in the balcony somewhere! There are also build guides for a number of kits on the website, both reviews and Workbench bits and bobs. 

 

MIOG Website

 

Lastly there is a kit/rtr list I put together a while back on the website, but it does need updating. @djparkins I am not sure what you have available these days but if there is anything you want adding to this list please drop me a line and I'll tweak it up. I am trying to keep it to TOPs coded rollingstock.

 

MIOG Rolling Stock List.

 

 

[Supaned]

To be honest I'd have thought a 1st generation DMU such as a 101 would be a massive seller - yes I know there was the Bachmann Brass one and now a kit from Easy build (which judging by the issues people have with roof profile seems to be somewhat of a contradiction), but given the widespread use and timespan surely more viable than something like a 153.

 

On a related note , I'm surprised at the lack of "joined up" thinking in 7mm. The upcoming Heljan 73 being a case in point - no TC unit (for which Heljan need only tool up a driving trailer) or any other EMUs , yet a 33 and a 73.

 

Like Brynna, 7mm scale appeals, but my skillset doesn't correlate with what is readily available , and I have little to no interest in GWR or BR period steam....

Edited September 10, 2022 by Supaned

[47606odin]

There is a lack of modern units, generation 2 onwards, however there is also a lack of privatisation era rollingstock to go with all these locos produced which makes modern O gauge more of depot building layouts as there needs to be more suitable stock to run.

 

Therefore there is another problem, as modern trains tend to run in block loads other than engineers traffic. And very few people have the space to build a layout in O to run block trains with correct rollingstock, so the scale means it will be a heavily depot loco biased scale in modern image.

 

so a small station would work, but then there’s not much operationally can be done with modern image at the end of a single track branch as there tends to be no running round or wagon shunting.

 

so when it comes to modern units, if the layout was built to modern operations there’s not much operating to do, and if it’s a 3 car DMU it takes up a lot of space, so I suspect the Heljan 117 will be a slow seller, as most home shelf shunting plank layouts won’t be able to accommodate it very well

 

It’s the difficulty in the scale. 
 

[fail safe]

On 09/09/2022 at 15:48, djparkins said:

Just look at how most RTR stuff ends up being heavily discounted

They are discounting because they need to clear their shelves for the next lot of releases. There is so much about to come out now, 0 gauge has never had it so good. And you can bet they wouldn't be doing updated re runs of so many locos if there was no demand.  I did see the Dapol 66 at Stafford. It's been running in its grey unpainted form on one of the modern image layouts. As for then rest, the Dapol Mk1s are a work of art in a relative RTR way and more versions are about to appear, as well as Heljan Mk2s very soon.  Also soon the HAAs (re run) HEAs TTAs and Ellis clarks Seacows and Sharks etc etc.

 

You make some really excellent products for detailing RTR David, I've used them many times myself and find your products superb and invaluable. Maybe this is where to concentrate.  Vin at Protoneo has sold out of his class 50 conversion kits for the original locos, I'm doing a 57 with his parts, also a 47/7 with his fuel tank and connector kit. Detailing RTR can be as much fun as building a kit for some of us, and I have built JLTRT and MM1 loco kits too.

[fail safe]

5 hours ago, 47606odin said:

Therefore there is another problem, as modern trains tend to run in block loads other than engineers traffic. And very few people have the space to build a layout in O to run block trains with correct rollingstock, so the scale means it will be a heavily depot loco biased scale in modern image.

They do, but it's not the problem you describe, any more than it is for modellers of yesteryear. There were long trains during the steam era too. There are countless examples of short formations and creative ideas for modelling modern or todays railways. Too many to list here.

[djparkins]

3 hours ago, fail safe said:

You make some really excellent products for detailing RTR David, I've used them many times myself and find your products superb and invaluable. Maybe this is where to concentrate. 

 

Well I mainly concentrate on my military ranges. That's where the profit is [not that I need to earn a living anymore] - but hey, I'm greedy!

 

But I have purchased many ranges lately so am committed to bringing out/re-introducing many many railway and road vehicle kits  + my own in-house un-released stuff, and most will never be produced by RTR companies. And even if they are, with enough time elapsed, they will vanish from the market again. Still, what do I know? [no don't answer that!!!].

 

I'm an etched kit producer primarily and suggesting I become something else is maybe like telling a jzzz musician to play pop music because he'll make more money. Too late - after 48 years it's in my blood.  But for your information, I did actually procure a Dapol Mk.1 Coach and a Heljan Class 60 to investigate the feasiblity of doing detail sets for them - from details culled from our own kits of these. With both, I just didn't know where to begin that wouldn't have resulted in the modeller having to repaint the model, since so much paintwork would been disturbed - and that rather defeats the idea of buying RTR in first place!

 

If you really want to understand what is happening to O gauge then I suggest you seek out and read some of the late Adrian Swain's postings before he was banned from this forum [if they are are still in the archive]. He had it sussed, but it is an unwelcome message he was imparting. I recall him pointing out the shortcomings of one product, and one reply in block capitals was 'We don't care!". That says it all. His fifty years in the model industry obviously counted for nothing.

 

But I think I'll just duck out of this discussion now as it seems to be going nowhere.

 

 

[muddys-blues]

Hello Bryn, not sure if you have seen Chris Turnbull’s Cromer layout, he has a few scratch built 2nd Feb items on there, may be an inspiration to have a go at building yourself something ? 

 

Best regards

Craig