Sommerfeldt tramway masts

[009 micro modeller]

Has anyone used the Sommerfeldt tramway masts, and can anyone tell me roughly what the height of the contact wire ends up being (above rail or ground level, either is useful for me at this stage)?

 

I’ve also been reading the instructions here for fitting wiring to Sommerfeldt masts. It seems surprisingly straightforward for bow collectors and pantographs (which I will be using) although possibly a bit fiddly to solder given that the masts presumably have to already be in situ on the layout. However, is this method (with the individual pieces of wire) suitable for live overhead, as opposed to cosmetic with 2 rail operation?

[PaulRhB]

17 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Has anyone used the Sommerfeldt tramway masts, and can anyone tell me roughly what the height of the contact wire ends up being (above rail or ground level, either is useful for me at this stage)?

p38 diagram and heights

 

https://www.sommerfeldt.de/images/download/sommerfeldt-katalog.pdf

 

The first icon under each mast also tells you the mast height. 

 

 

17 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

I’ve also been reading the instructions here for fitting wiring to Sommerfeldt masts. It seems surprisingly straightforward for bow collectors and pantographs (which I will be using) although possibly a bit fiddly to solder given that the masts presumably have to already be in situ on the layout.
 

Just clean the wires where they’ll be soldered with fine emery board gently and you’ll have no issues. 

 

17 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

However, is this method (with the individual pieces of wire) suitable for live overhead, as opposed to cosmetic with 2 rail operation?

Yes with a couple of provisions. 
If it’s a portable layout and you are going to split tracks the thicker wire is more durable. The thin wire looks better but needs proper tensioning. 
At a board joint I just hooked the cross board wires round under light tension, wire to the left here but you can see the hook (thicker wires in use here)

 

And a top shot of another, the upper wire was purely cosmetic and not under tension.

 

Although I didn’t pick up the pantographs we’re all in contact, note they don’t recommend using it for DCC

 

Think about how you will clean your track once it’s up. 
I used cmx track cleaners for HOm and 009 but they’ve got very expensive. However Dapol and Tomix have done cheaper motorised cleaners or pad type a under wagons work well with no risk of snagging wires. 

 

 

[009 micro modeller]

2 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Yes with a couple of provisions. 
If it’s a portable layout and you are going to split tracks the thicker wire is more durable. The thin wire looks better but needs proper tensioning. 
At a board joint I just hooked the cross board wires round under light tension, wire to the left here but you can see the hook (thicker wires in use here)

That’s useful to know. It’ll be portable but small, and all on the same board. The only difference from your system in the picture is that, as it’ll be tramway-style overhead, I’ll only have the contact wire and not the catenary wire. I’m not sure if that distinction is especially relevant to my original question though.

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

That’s useful to know. It’ll be portable but small, and all on the same board. The only difference from your system in the picture is that, as it’ll be tramway-style overhead, I’ll only have the contact wire and not the catenary wire. I’m not sure if that distinction is especially relevant to my original question though.

In operation no it won’t. I only tensioned the bottom wire so all the top wire did was add a bit of structural stability and allow longer spans on straights with minimal deflection of the wire by the pantograph. 

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

In operation no it won’t. I only tensioned the bottom wire so all the top wire did was add a bit of structural stability and allow longer spans on straights with minimal deflection of the wire by the pantograph. 

Also I looked at the diagram in the catalogue you linked to, which seems to suggest the height of the wire is 65mm (though I think this is above rail rather than ground level). This is probably about right for my project but may be very slightly too low, and I’m wondering if adding some sort of base or even a short extra bit of tube to increase the height slightly would be possible? Otherwise they’re probably the perfect thing for my project. I was slightly confused as the catalogue says 65mm but the instructions for using Sommerfeldt masts suggest that about 70mm is required.

Edited October 2, 2022 by 009 micro modeller

[PaulRhB]

You can mount them through a block or wider tube quite easily as there’s a length of threaded stud on the bottom of each post to secure it through the baseboard. 
65mm just reflects the smaller tram masts it’s 67mm for HOm in their diagrams but the pantograph will take up and slight change. The only critical thing is not to get too close to your pantographs maximum height if you’re using it for power or you’ll loose contact or get arcing which will quickly damage the head or wire. 

[009 micro modeller]

16 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

65mm just reflects the smaller tram masts it’s 67mm for HOm in their diagrams

I thought 65mm was the rail to wire height for the standard gauge H0 tramway style ones?

[PaulRhB]

Just now, 009 micro modeller said:

I thought 65mm was the rail to wire height for the standard gauge H0 tramway style ones?

Yes vs 70mm for SG main line masts. Mine varied down for tunnels and you’ll often see higher wires with trolley poles on street sections especially in the UK with double deck trams to keep the wire out of reach of top deck passengers and tall road vehicles. 
Think of the dimensions as a rough guide or datum. 

[009 micro modeller]

3 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Yes vs 70mm for SG main line masts. Mine varied down for tunnels and you’ll often see higher wires with trolley poles on street sections especially in the UK with double deck trams to keep the wire out of reach of top deck passengers and tall road vehicles. 
Think of the dimensions as a rough guide or datum. 

Thanks, that makes sense. I just wonder whether trying to extend the height slightly is the best idea, or whether I should look for masts from other manufacturers as well…

[009 micro modeller]

On 02/10/2022 at 11:30, PaulRhB said:

Yes with a couple of provisions. 
If it’s a portable layout and you are going to split tracks the thicker wire is more durable. The thin wire looks better but needs proper tensioning. 

Just picking this up again now that I’m getting somewhere with this project (I’ve ordered the Sommerfeldt overhead stuff and now waiting for it to come). The instructions imply that you fit the wire when the masts are already in situ on the layout: https://www.bec-kits.co.uk/Masts/mastho.htm

 

Is this correct? It seems a bit fiddly but otherwise I can’t think how you’d make sure they were aligned properly.

 

 I plan to basically follow the instructions but also gently apply a bit of solder at each mast to connect the two pieces of wire to each other (because I’m using live overhead and need the electrical continuity).

[Dunalastair]

Stating the obvious, probably, make sure that your masts are well anchored. I made the mistake of using (3D printed) masts inserted into a Celotex foam baseboard with elastic filament 'wire', and found that they were pulled over, elongating the holes. Lesson learned ...

[PaulRhB]

33 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Is this correct? It seems a bit fiddly but otherwise I can’t think how you’d make sure they were aligned properly.

 

Yes plant the masts then add the wires it’s actually pretty easy. You can cut down wires if you’ve ordered too long too. 

 

33 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

 I plan to basically follow the instructions but also gently apply a bit of solder at each mast to connect the two pieces of wire to each other (because I’m using live overhead and need the electrical continuity).

Clean the wires roughly where you’ll be soldering on both sides using a soft sanding sponge gently on a flat surface and soldering will be easy. 
I made a jig to represent my smallest pantographs flat top and slid it along checking each section before soldering it up.

 

Once you’ve done two or three just run the loco with smallest pantograph underneath to check for snags and sideways deflection. It’s pretty easy once you’ve got the hang of it.