Branchline crossing over mainline trackwork

[Balders45]

Looking to add a branch line connection to cross over  the existing "main line" on to the single line heading off to a BLT, would the branchline train come off the bidirectional single line and run wrong road on to the single line accross the main up and down lines? Or would there be a more intricate track layout needed?Trackwork is code100, what pointwork would be used to achieve this? Fag packet drawing attached!

Thanks martin

[Wickham Green too]

If your two branch lines were built by the main line company ( or associates ) there would, undoubtedly, be a station between them to allow interchange : think Athenry. [ If the branches were a through route of a different company the later arrival would probably bridge the other ( with connections as an afterthought, p'raps ) : think Kingham.

[Balders45]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

If your two branch lines were built by the main line company ( or associates ) there would, undoubtedly, be a station between them to allow interchange : think Athenry. [ If the branches were a through route of a different company the later arrival would probably bridge the other ( with connections as an afterthought, p'raps ) : think Kingham.

Thanks for your response, certainly no room for bridging so a less engineered solution is needed! Would like it to be as realistic as possible but space is a premium 

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Balders45 said:

Thanks for your response, certainly no room for bridging so a less engineered solution is needed! Would like it to be as realistic as possible but space is a premium 

Don't forget that in the past - effectively up until layout rationalisation from the very late 1950s onwards - a double junction was required where a single line joined a double/multiple line.  Very occasionally exceptions were allowed by the Board of Trade /Dept of Transport but the Requirements laid down the need for a double junction.

[micknich2003]

Here's an example of a Double to Single Line Junction, three versions, as installed, provision of level crossing, and then as relayed etc. Details on drawings.

[Balders45]

57 minutes ago, micknich2003 said:

Here's an example of a Double to Single Line Junction, three versions, as installed, provision of level crossing, and then as relayed etc. Details on drawings.

 

[eastglosmog]

Try Yarnton Junction, where the Witney Railway met the OWW https://maps.nls.uk/view/106017234

It is a basic single line splitting into two for the junction, plus a few additional sidings on the main line plus a further double line junction for the LNWR Yarnton loop to the Oxford Bicester line.

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, eastglosmog said:

Try Yarnton Junction, where the Witney Railway met the OWW https://maps.nls.uk/view/106017234

It is a basic single line splitting into two for the junction, plus a few additional sidings on the main line plus a further double line junction for the LNWR Yarnton loop to the Oxford Bicester line.

 

Laid as a pair of double junctions, with the station between, as mentioned earlier.

 

In your confined space, you could fit a single line crossing a double line on the level - a mineral line perhaps, no connection between the two routes. With signalbox and signalling.

[2251]

The only prototypical example I can think of off-hand without a station in between is Bearley North Junction, which was laid out as a pair of double junctions:

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/sig-diag-bearley-north.htm

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, 2251 said:

The only prototypical example I can think of off-hand without a station in between is Bearley North Junction, which was laid out as a pair of double junctions:

 

What would restrict the minimum distance between the two junctions? Length of the locking bars?

[The Stationmaster]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

What would restrict the minimum distance between the two junctions? Length of the locking bars?

They could almost be toe-to-toe but then the question of reverse curves might well come into play.  The length of the locking bars is not necessarily a problem as they could run through the pointwork instead of lying in rear of it.

[2251]

8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

What would restrict the minimum distance between the two junctions? Length of the locking bars?

 

Are we talking here about facing point locks or locking (also called fouling) bars, which would only be required where the signalman has a restricted view of the fouling point?

[The Johnster]

17 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Laid as a pair of double junctions, with the station between, as mentioned earlier.

 

In your confined space, you could fit a single line crossing a double line on the level - a mineral line perhaps, no connection between the two routes. With signalbox and signalling.

There was one of these at Pentyrch Crossing on the Taff Vale between Radyr and Walnut Tree Jc; 4 running lines (up & down mains plus up & down reliefs, the latter permissive block) crossed on the level by the Melingriffith Railway, an industrial line.  The alignment still exists as a cycle path connecting Morganstown to the Taff Trail.  The site was originally Pentyrch Station on the TVR, and the 1838 station house still exists as well as a private dwelling.  The main lines were protected on each side by trap points on the Melingriffith controlled from the TVR signalbox. 
 

The girder bridge by which the Melingriffith crossed the Taff nearby also survives as part of the cycle path. 
 

Despite the industrial nature of the Melingriffith, the location is quite rural, with good views of Castell Coch, but spoiled a bit by the thundering presence of the M4!

 

 

[eastglosmog]

3 hours ago, 2251 said:

The only prototypical example I can think of off-hand without a station in between is Bearley North Junction, which was laid out as a pair of double junctions:

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/sig-diag-bearley-north.htm

There is also Lansdown Junction at Cheltenham where the Banbury and Cheltenham left the Midland line to Gloucester.  https://maps.nls.uk/view/109724763

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, eastglosmog said:

There is also Lansdown Junction at Cheltenham where the Banbury and Cheltenham left the Midland line to Gloucester.  https://maps.nls.uk/view/109724763

 

Two double junctions, three railway companies!

 

I'm sure that more examples must exist among the densely-railed confines of the Pennine valleys of Lancashire and Yorkshire. 

[Balders45]

For a bit of context, Harlequin produced the attached track plan inc fiddle yard which I have built. With a bit of space becoming available to extend I want to remove the fiddle yard and bring the single track around and join it where I show the single track becoming a double joint a fictions mainline. For added operational interest I thought about adding the bi directional single branchline. My new fiddle yard would be slimmed down and use cassettes opposed to storage roads.

I appreciate this proposed  tracklayout may be as rare as rocking horse poo but something that would look plausible will do for me!

Thanks everyone for your time, comments, thoughts and input so far

[phil_sutters]

This is where the S&DJR line crosses the GWR line at Highbridge. The line from the right is from the S&D station, Evercreech and beyond. The line to the immediate left leads to Highbridge Wharf and Burnham.  The other line to the left leads into the GWR goods yard.

[meil]

On 04/10/2022 at 05:08, Balders45 said:

Looking to add a branch line connection to cross over  the existing "main line" on to the single line heading off to a BLT, would the branchline train come off the bidirectional single line and run wrong road on to the single line accross the main up and down lines? Or would there be a more intricate track layout needed?Trackwork is code100, what pointwork would be used to achieve this? Fag packet drawing attached!

Thanks martin

What you have drawn is almost a depiction of the original layout of Bewdley North with the junction to Wofferton and the Bi-Line to platform 3. Your Dead-End is to Bridgenorth.

[ikcdab]

I think that whatever track layout you come up with you will find a prototypical example. There are many variations depending on era, company and the needs of the traffic.

A "wrong road" example is Truro and Penwithers Junction. Simplest layout possible. 

For a quadruple track to single line example, look at Narroways Junction at Bristol.

Ian

[melmerby]

22 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

I think that whatever track layout you come up with you will find a prototypical example. There are many variations depending on era, company and the needs of the traffic.

A "wrong road" example is Truro and Penwithers Junction. Simplest layout possible. 

For a quadruple track to single line example, look at Narroways Junction at Bristol.

Ian

From the OS maps (not always totally accurate on track matters):

Back in Broad Gauge days (1878),  the standard gauge Newham branch crossed the still Broad gauge Falmouth branch to join the mixed gauge single track Main line

The Falmouth branch and the mainline entered Truro side by side.

 

By 1906 the main line (still single but standard of course) and the Falmouth branch both split to two tracks to form a double track junction which contintued in the station as a double track main line.

The Newham branch now trails into the Falmouth branch instead of crossing it.

[Compound2632]

Well, if it's mixed gauge crossings, one need look no further than Porthmadog.

[The Stationmaster]

21 hours ago, 2251 said:

 

Are we talking here about facing point locks or locking (also called fouling) bars, which would only be required where the signalman has a restricted view of the fouling point?

We are talking about facing point lock (or locking) bars - i.e. the bars which operate the actual facing point lock bolt and which are prevented from rising by the wheels of a passing train thus ensuring that the points remain locked during the passage of a train.  

 

Fouling bars are a different thing entirely and can be either depression or rising bars (FP locking bars are rising bars) and serve to ensure that vehicles are clear of the trailing end of a point.

[2251]

22 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

We are talking about facing point lock (or locking) bars - i.e. the bars which operate the actual facing point lock bolt and which are prevented from rising by the wheels of a passing train thus ensuring that the points remain locked during the passage of a train.  

 

Fouling bars are a different thing entirely and can be either depression or rising bars (FP locking bars are rising bars) and serve to ensure that vehicles are clear of the trailing end of a point.

 

I thought we were but wanted to check as "locking bars" is one of those expressions used, perhaps wrongly, in two quite different senses. 

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

From the OS maps (not always totally accurate on track matters):

Back in Broad Gauge days (1878),  the standard gauge Newham branch crossed the still Broad gauge Falmouth branch to join the mixed gauge single track Main line

The Falmouth branch and the mainline entered Truro side by side.

 

By 1906 the main line (still single but standard of course) and the Falmouth branch both split to two tracks to form a double track junction which contintued in the station as a double track main line.

The Newham branch now trails into the Falmouth branch instead of crossing it.

The story of Penwithers Jcn is fascinating to say the very least.   Originally it was not a junction but simply a station ( (Higher Town) on the West Cornwall's line (standard gauge) from Truro to Penzance opened in 1855.  The line was extended to a new Truro station at Newham in 1859 and also extended, still standard gauge from a new junction at Penwithers to the Cornwall Railway station in Truro.  

 

in 1863 the Cornwall Raliway opened its broad gauge line from Truro to its westerly terminus at Falmouth.  Thus west of Truro station, through the tunnel to Penwithers, there were now two parallel single lines - one broad gauge and one standard gauge.  This arrangement didn't change but in 1866 the narrow (in GWR terms), aka standard. gauge West Cornwall line was converted to mixed gauge from Truro station to Penzance; the line to Newham remained standard gauge and the line to Falmouth remained broad gauge.

 

Following the 1892 gauge conversion all lines became narrow, aka standard, gauge.  In 1893/94 the arrangements were drastically altered with the two single lines from Truro to Penwithers Jcn being altered to double line and a new double line junction between the two routes installed at Penwithers.  However both routes beyond the junction remained single line.  The Newham branch was altered to trail into the Down Line on the short double track section of the Falmouth line.

 

The next alteration came in 1914 when the main line westwards towards Penzance was doubled west of Penwithers Jcn.  Nothing then changed until November 1971 when the Newham branch was closed and the double junction to the Falmouth line was abolished leaving just a single line from Falmouth joining the Down Main (Penzance) Line which was made bi-directional between the junction and the west end of Truro station with Penwithers Jcn signal box closed.

 

Overall it is an interesting little microcosm of the manner in which junctions leading to single lines changed over the years

Edited October 6, 2022 by The Stationmaster

[Compound2632]

22 minutes ago, 2251 said:

I thought we were but wanted to check as "locking bars" is one of those expressions used, perhaps wrongly, in two quite different senses. 

 

It was the locking bars for the facing points I had in mind but am, as always, glad to have elicited Mike @The Stationmaster's clarification, being myself a rank amateur when it comes to these matters.