Hornby announce TT:120

[Les1952]

4 hours ago, Tim Dubya said:

Off at a tangent...

 

Are sound fitted locos available in N gauge?, just thinking out loud about the available space in a TT model for the chip and speaker(s).  I'm thinking tank locos and small diseasels.

 

 

I've had three sound fitted locos running on my layouts for about 6 years, an A3, a WD and an Ivatt 2MT.  These were well before Farish started putting sound into theirs at factory.  The latest Farish 08 is sound fitted.  Just don't think in terms of fitting sound to a Deltic in this scale- not enough bass on the speaker, even the Accurascale OO one is a little boredeline for bass.

 

Les

[Les1952]

4 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

In 1957, it all sounded wonderful:
 

 

(from the original leaflet )

 

 

showing your age?  I get to 1963 with TT and thought I was pushing it....

 

Les

Edited October 13, 2022 by Les1952
typos...

[Les1952]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Europe is not the UK.

 

We have different railway companies, none of which are more than a few dozen miles from each other. A loco on the WR could easily end up in Scotland. SNCF locos dont generally turn up in Eastern Poland…

 

 

Belgian ones will be once they get the authorisation, and locos nowadays pick up trains in Rotterdam or Hamburg and stay on the same train to Rome or Budapest.  I'm not sure if SNCF have four-voltage locos, but Slovenian Taurus types have reached as far as Southern Germany on freights......

 

Les

[adb968008]

1 minute ago, Les1952 said:

 

Belgian ones will be once they get the authorisation, and locos nowadays pick up trains in Rotterdam or Hamburg and stay on the same train to Rome or Budapest.  I'm not sure if SNCF have four-voltage locos, but Slovenian Taurus types have reached as far as Southern Germany on freights......

 

Les

I have seen interesting loans in the past, JZ borrowed some PKP locos, and later reciprocated.. I remeber seeing them on a passenger train in Krakow which completely stunned me.

 

Switzerland seems to benefit from everyone elses high speed traction.

[Les1952]

22 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

I think he was commenting only on the Minitrix implementation of the coupler

 

That wasn't much better- too much space between adjacent vehicles and Minitrix wagons still flew up into the air when your auto uncoupler decided to work....

 

Les

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

It suggests nothing of the kind.

 

What it does prove, though,  is despite protestations to the contrary  there is a hard-core of forum members who hope it will fail, for various reasons, and come up their reasons which have been repeated and debunked every few pages. Hence 46+ pages!

 

As we all know is that we simply don't know how it will pan out, that's the only definite!!

Simple fact is that nobody knows if it is going to succeed, or be a silver bullet for Hornby, or is going to flop or is going to ruin Hornby.  Hornby obviously think that it will attract people working in other scales and that it will bring extra people (= completely new customers=new money) into the marketplace.  Time will tell on all of those things but no doubt Hornby's very large investment in TT120 is supported by extensive market research of various kinds and will be backed by marketing and sales promotions as part of its overall budget and business plan.

 

Hornby, I have long said, needed to innovate and find a new market area where they could take a lead and TT (of some sort) has been an obvious target to do that sort of thing.  But even some of their own marketing is sending a mixed message by promoting TT120 in competition with their own 00 product which could, and has, prompted people to ask questions,    As with anything new or different people are bound to have a range of views and look at whatever it is in different ways and surely one purpose of a forum is to let such views be (politely) expressed - whether you or I agree or disagree with them.

 

Sometimes this will turn into a situation where things are bounced to & fro - that I think is unavoidable but it is a way debate and questioning something has long tended to work - whether we like it or not.   I'm glad to see the innovation, it hasn't come as surprise to me but both of itself in terms of theinvestment involved and in some aspects of the way it is being promoted I'm left wondering how Hornby will manage investment in two different scales over the longer term.  Equally I think it is perfectly valid to examine what they are offering in the range and how that fits into both existing and new markets or what those markets are perceived to want to buy.   All  these various things will in one way or another contribute to Hornby's future success as a business and what course that business will follow.

 

Som efolk have shown faith in the business by being prepared to pay a a peny or two more for Hornby shares than was the case before this produvct line was announced but the daily opening share price has continued to flat line.  Clearly other factors affect share prices but it is interesting that a mjor new marketing launch doesn't seem to have excited the stock market.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

Dapol are generally available to the trade. (My local retailer doesn't have stocks of their N micro couplers in medium , the most useful size.)

 

The others have appointed one or two selected retailers - eg Revolution work with Rails. Their models aren't available to the ordinary model shop

 

When the ordinary model shop cannot stock more and more of the brands in the hobby - and the modeller is accustomed to buying direct from the brand, online , because he has to - where does that leave the ordinary model shop??

 

I'm not sure I like the implications . But nor can I see a way to buck the trend.

 

The position "You are not allowed to sell direct. All your competitors sell direct - but you are not allowed to " does not seem tenable long term

Come on  what 'one or two retailers?  Accurascale's 'stockist finder' lists 3 retailers within an hour's drive from me and another 4 within 90 minutes drive;  I could even get to three of them by train in about an hour without too far to walk from the nearest station.  Rapido list well over 60 retailers in Britain several of which are also no more than an hour or so to drive from my home (and one of them is my source of supply for Rapido models).  Both of my 'local' retailers stock Dapol,  Accurascale and Rapido and one them also stocks Revolution models.  BTW they also stock Hornby - when they can actually get what they've ordered in good faith.

 

Sorry for going OT but facts do occasionally help😇

[TrainMan2001]

10 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

But you need to compare like with like

 

Hornby OO R1282 Mallard record breaker £249.99

 

Hornby TT Easterner £194.49

 

Gaugemaster N class 800 £212 (closest current set I could find)

 

There are more basic sets cheaper but a close comparison is more in OO and close in N at retail prices. 

Apologies for the quote several pages late, but to add to what you said, I've put Hornby's TT:120 starter sets through the Pound to USD converter, and the prices for them are ~$30 (or more) lower than the most closely comparable US starter sets in HO and N at respective RRP's. And you get more straight track + a set of points.

[jjb1970]

I think the main (hopefully constructive) criticism I would offer Hornby is that they should consider developing a snap together ballasted track system like Kato Unitrak. I know many others have made the same point and noted that Tillig pay to use the Kato connector. I know many serious model enthusiasts dismiss such track systems but it is great for newcomers and those nearer the trainset than high fidelity layout part of the hobby. And I have seen some seriously good layouts in Japan using Unitrak. I have used it in N to gauge and think it is a brilliant system.

[BRTrainz]

47 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

I think the main (hopefully constructive) criticism I would offer Hornby is that they should consider developing a snap together ballasted track system like Kato Unitrak. I know many others have made the same point and noted that Tillig pay to use the Kato connector. I know many serious model enthusiasts dismiss such track systems but it is great for newcomers and those nearer the trainset than high fidelity layout part of the hobby. And I have seen some seriously good layouts in Japan using Unitrak. I have used it in N to gauge and think it is a brilliant system.

I agree. I myself am skipping Hornby's track offerings for Tillig's as I love HO and N Unitrack and want something similar in TT.

Hornby could alternatively do a track system that does both like Atlas' HO True Track, which is Atlas' regular code 83 track in a removable ballast base with connectors.

[britishcolumbian]

4 hours ago, Ravenser said:

More and more of the trade is direct sales, and this steadily undercuts the ordinary model shop

Perhaps the ordinary model shop needs to look at ways to make itself relevant again: sell yourself to me - show me why I should shop with you (at higher prices!) rather than online. The buyer's question of "what's in it for me?" needs to be answered, against the background of "I can get it readily at lower price online, from the comfort of my own home etc etc".

 

I appreciate the plus points of the local shop, notably for me, the community aspect, spending a few minutes extra chatting, asking for advice and opinions, etc... but aside from the most basic essentials like glue and paint, there's little I buy there (admittedly, that's partly due to my not modelling the Canadian Pacific in H0). Why should I special order something through the shop, when it'll turn out costing more and taking longer, involving an extra trip out as opposed to the postie bringing it to my door?

[jjb1970]

Something which is often lost is that on-line retail is not synonymous with manufacturer direct sales. Most model railway on-line shopping is with retailers who also provide a physical shop service and access to a wide range of brands. That said, there is a valid point that if you shop on-line (which is not optional for many unless they stack purchases for rare expeditions to visit physical shops) then what's the difference between buying direct and buying from a retailer?

From the seller perspective I see pro's and cons':

 

+

Cuts out a profit layer, allowing lower pricing

They can increase margins simultaneously with lower pricing

A more direct link with end consumers

-

They have to manage distribution of thousands of deliveries to individual customers rather than a relatively small number of deliveries to bulk buyers

They may take a lot longer to offload their inventory as they'll be the ones with it sitting on shelves waiting for buyers

They lose a shop front

The direct sales model is probably very appropriate for rolling stock but much less attractive for all the small penny purchases that are part of the hobby

 

I really don't have any issues with buying direct, and I don't think the on-line shopping genie is ever going back in the bottle, but I do wonder whether it's the right way forward. It could certainly work, but to do e-commerce isn't as easy as many seem to think. Those businesses which are good at it (people might hate Amazon but they offer a superb on-line shopping service which is pretty much the benchmark) have made serious investment and developed a lot of expertise to be as good as they are. In a market like model railways I can see direct sales being ideal for locomotives but it is less clear that it is a good idea for everything else. And the big difference between Hornby and most of their competitors is that they offer a full range, all your model railway needs from a single source. 

[britishcolumbian]

2 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

I can see direct sales being ideal for locomotives but it is less clear that it is a good idea for everything else.

I'm 100% in agreement with you here. Unless it's some extremely unusual colour (but I'd probably end up mixing that anyways), for paints, glue, styrene sheet and that sort of thing, the physical shop is much better since I'll have it in hand and ready to use in the time it takes to get to the shop and back.

[GWR-fan]

23 minutes ago, britishcolumbian said:

I'm 100% in agreement with you here. Unless it's some extremely unusual colour (but I'd probably end up mixing that anyways), for paints, glue, styrene sheet and that sort of thing, the physical shop is much better since I'll have it in hand and ready to use in the time it takes to get to the shop and back.

 

You answered your own question!!!!  If not for the local hobby shop,  finding those items you refer to could be very difficult online.

 

It is ironic that Hornby would not even qualify as a tier 1 or 2 retailer and yet they rate retail outlets on their ability to serve the public.

[britishcolumbian]

26 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

finding those items you refer to could be very difficult online.

Not difficult at all, just somewhat less convenient.

[britishcolumbian]

27 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

You answered your own question!!!!  If not for the local hobby shop,  finding those items you refer to could be very difficult online.

More importantly though, that still doesn't answer the primary question - how does the fact that I can go and get a bottle of glue and have it straight away make it worth paying a not insignificant amount more for a locomotive or something, that might have to be specially ordered in anyways?

 

Actually, come to think of it, I could order a whole box of glue from an online source, pay less, and be stocked for the whole year...

[jjb1970]

A lot of the smaller items are less problematic to buy locally as many places which don't have a model railway shop might have a shop selling plastic kits or craft supplies. Railway specific paints are a problem but here in Singapore I have no problems with plastic kit shops and RC shops which sell a lot of the smaller stuff I need (adhesives, paint brushes, air brush bits, scenic material, small electrical stuff etc). Where it gets difficult is certain paint shades, buildings and railway specific scenic products. 

[rogerzilla]

If they want the train set market, direct-only isn't going to work.  They need to be on Amazon and in toy shops.  Despite some of the marketing photos, I think the scale is too small for children.

[Trainnoob]

15 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

But you need to compare like with like

 

Hornby OO R1282 Mallard record breaker £249.99

 

Hornby TT Easterner £194.49

 

Gaugemaster N class 800 £212 (closest current set I could find)

 

There are more basic sets cheaper but a close comparison is more in OO and close in N at retail prices. 

The Gaugemaster N Class 800 is better value for money but I see where your getting at.

[Trains4U]

6 minutes ago, rogerzilla said:

If they want the train set market, direct-only isn't going to work.  They need to be on Amazon and in toy shops.  Despite some of the marketing photos, I think the scale is too small for children.

Hornby are on Amazon

 

though Amazon won’t list product that isn’t shippable.

[andythenorth]

8 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

 Is it even cool these days with millennials living their lives on social media platforms to admit they have a model railway hobby interest?  From my recollection, even back in the days of Meccano and Hornby Dublo,  any interest in model railways was perceived by others as a childish interest that one would grow out of. 

In the 1980s and 90s having an interest in trains would literally get the crap kicked out of you, so I'd say social media has been a breath of fresh air for the hobby.  Generally all geeky hobbies have a better rep compared to the 80s and 90s, and the people in them can connect more to other people with similar interests. 

 

'Cool' might be a step to far, but it's a long way beyond 'getting the crap kicked out of you'.

 

So off-topic sorry, but the UK RTR hobby was a dead duck by the late 90s. Lima had gone bust, Bachmann were only starting, and Hornby looked certain to disappear for anything beyond trainsets.  How things have changed eh 🙃

Edited October 14, 2022 by andythenorth

[Widnes Model Centre]

2 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

 

You answered your own question!!!!  If not for the local hobby shop,  finding those items you refer to could be very difficult online.

 

It is ironic that Hornby would not even qualify as a tier 1 or 2 retailer and yet they rate retail outlets on their ability to serve the public.

That’s the side of a retailer that Hornby don’t appear to see.

 

Scalextric set brought into our shop, a birthday present. One of the cars isn’t working. Hornby advised the customer to take it to the nearest Hornby dealer. Quicker and easier. Ten minutes later car sorted and happy customer. It was brought from Direct Sales. 

 

@Trains4U is understandably miffed that Hornby have gone down the Direct Sales for TT120. Will Hornby be directing their TT120 customers to their nearest model shop? 
 

Getting back on topic, I have joined the TT 120 Collectors Club, l fancy the idea of a layout for myself. But for a Modern Image layout the gaps are visible.

 

If as it appears Hornby are intending to go wholly down the direct sales, the risk is entirely on them. At the moment the risk is with their retailers. We buy, if it doesn’t sell, we get to keep it anyway. No Sale Or Return for retailers. If it doesn’t sell quickly enough, our warranty with Hornby runs out.

 

Coincidently, we haven’t had a single enquiry regarding this range. Today we will be posting to our 7,000 Facebook followers and will not be able to mention TT120, just like all the other retailers. Hornby’s much talked about advertising campaign has missed the opportunity to have massive amounts of advertising at no cost to themselves. Not to mention Point of Sales advertising.
 

Promised retailers so much, then….. 

[andythenorth]

7 hours ago, nathan70000 said:

I hope they don't abandon OO altogether. This is a huge launch, it's hard to see how they could secure the factory capacity for a standard product announcement in January alongside the upcoming TT products.

In order: they won't.  It is.  It won't be that much stuff.

 

It's a huge launch because that's how a product range is launched: go big, grit teeth, hope for sales.

 

They won't abandon OO, the relative sales differential will be huge.  TT is not going to displace OO sales.  Hornby have large amounts of tooling which is long-since paid for and clearly has an established model exploiting that.

 

Factory capacity, I have no idea, but I suspect the TT volumes will be relatively low.  As someone who has bought in heavily on pre-orders, hopefully the have prescheduled effectively.  Even allowing for uncontrollable circumstances, I have accepted that I might well be on the receiving end of late deliveries and quality issues, but obviously I would hope these didn't happen.

[GWR-fan]

2 hours ago, britishcolumbian said:

.......................................................

 

Actually, come to think of it, I could order a whole box of glue from an online source, pay less, and be stocked for the whole year...

 

Not aware of restrictions in other countries but glue and paint ordered online must be road transported.   I would believe these restrictions to air travel would impact importing these items from overseas as well.

[whart57]

5 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

I think the main (hopefully constructive) criticism I would offer Hornby is that they should consider developing a snap together ballasted track system like Kato Unitrak. I know many others have made the same point and noted that Tillig pay to use the Kato connector. I know many serious model enthusiasts dismiss such track systems but it is great for newcomers and those nearer the trainset than high fidelity layout part of the hobby. And I have seen some seriously good layouts in Japan using Unitrak. I have used it in N to gauge and think it is a brilliant system.

 

Well that would make the world come full circle then, that's Triang type A track, what Triang TT started with 65 years ago.