Hornby announce TT:120

[HSB]

I use Code 88 wheels for H0 on PECO Code 75 track without any problems. I see no reason why a Code 72 wouldn't similarly work in TT.

[teletougos]

On 25/01/2023 at 16:14, Ravenser said:

 

How far can existing 3mm wheels be used? They are at least aimed at 12mm gauge, and at 6/5ths of  TT:120 scale the scale difference might be managable

Not much use when it comes to wagons; closest the 3mm Soc do is an 8.2 - 8.3mm wheel (or at least they do a run of them sometimes - they are only used on Lowmacs or Rectanks (?) so they're often OOS. 

 

That is as close as they get to a 1:120 3' wagon wheel (would be 7.5-7.6mm.)

 

So it's 0.7mm too big diameter wise and that will just look too big given what we are talking about isn't just a measurement of length, but the visible area of the wheel face.

Edited January 30, 2023 by teletougos

[britishcolumbian]

I don't know anything yet about British wheel sizes but for NorAm, HOn3 has wheels that work out perfectly to 33" and 36" wheels in 1:120 - 33" were the norm for freight equipment into the 1960s, 36" since then.

[Craigw]

On 29/01/2023 at 02:53, natterjack said:

This thread is about TT120 and I was looking for items suitable to this scale- I did not wish to imply you cannot get what you want for 3mm scale; merely suggesting the 3mm society might want to be more encompassing to it own future benefit- and without knee jerk reaction.

 

They are the 3mm scale society.  By your logic they should also stock 2mm and 4mm scale products.

 

You are modelling to a different scale.

 

 

[sf315]

On 28/01/2023 at 10:30, Revolution Ben said:

 

Hi there,

 

Ryecroft Arena was built by Steve Farmer, and has its own thread here: 

 

Strictly speaking it wasn't a 'lockdown project', just a project, since Steve tends to build smaller layouts and all the ones I have seen have been excellent.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

Ben it was a lockdown project as it was built while I was furloughed from work and all the materials used in the early part of construction were what was in the garage as we couldn’t go anywhere. 

 

[andrewshimmin]

I was keen to use the track screws from Alan S Robinson rather than track pins for my fledgling TT layout. Not only do they allow easier repositioning of the track, they are also less prone to damaging the track by cack-handed pin pushing (ahem, I mean myself here). And a bit more child friendly (my layout is a family project).

Alan kindly sent me various samples to test with the Hornby TT:120 track. The 1.4mm diameter screws he recommends for 00 gauge were too large for the holes in the Hornby TT:120. The 1.2mm dia. screws were also a bit tight. However, the 1mm dia. screws which Alan recommends for N gauge also seem to be perfect for Hornby TT:120 track.

I found that the 6mm long screws were fine for securing the track directly to a plywood baseboard. I suppose if you were using underlay that the 8mm length might be required.

I have ordered a pack of the 6x1 screws from Alan and I will be using these on my layout.

[HSB]

6 hours ago, britishcolumbian said:

I don't know anything yet about British wheel sizes but for NorAm, HOn3 has wheels that work out perfectly to 33" and 36" wheels in 1:120 - 33" were the norm for freight equipment into the 1960s, 36" since then.

Normal size for wagons in steam days was 3' 1 1/2" or 3' 2" although this would reduce slightly every time the tyres were turned down. In model form this is usually rounded down to 3'.

Edited January 30, 2023 by HSB

[natterjack]

6 hours ago, Craigw said:

They are the 3mm scale society.  By your logic they should also stock 2mm and 4mm scale products.

 

You are modelling to a different scale.

 

So why stock TT120 ready to run? I sense a rabbit hole.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

11 minutes ago, natterjack said:

So why stock TT120 ready to run? I sense a rabbit hole.

 

I think you and Craigw are talking about completely different things.

 

I think that you are talking about the Hornby website as they are the only website selling RTR TT:120

 

I think Craigw assumed that you were talking about the 3mm Association website

 

You do not seem to have grasped that the 3mm Association supports and promotes TT3 - you are talking about TT;120 which whilst similar in some respects to TT3 is basically different, and if anything, there is a case to say that TT:120 could be seen as a deadly rival to TT3.

[Hobby]

11 minutes ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

there is a case to say that TT:120 could be seen as a deadly rival to TT3.

 

Let's not go down that rabbit hole, the two are different. TT:120 is modern RTR, TT3 isn't, so no real rivalry?

[TEAMYAKIMA]

9 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

Let's not go down that rabbit hole, the two are different. TT:120 is modern RTR, TT3 isn't, so no real rivalry?

 

Apologies, I agree with you, I was just trying to point out that the 3mm Association may not wish to actively promote TT:120

[natterjack]

40 minutes ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

I think that you are talking about the Hornby website as they are the only website selling RTR TT:120

I think you will find the 3SMR does indeed sell rtr TT120 which suggests interest/demand within its membership;

 

https://www.3smr.co.uk/readytorun.html

[Craigw]

2 minutes ago, natterjack said:

I think you will find the 3SMR does indeed sell rtr TT120 which suggests interest/demand within its membership;

 

https://www.3smr.co.uk/readytorun.html

 

 That site might, but it is not the 3mm scale society.

 

This is.....   The 3mm Society (google.com)

 

 

[andrewshimmin]

23 minutes ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

 

I think you and Craigw are talking about completely different things.

 

I think that you are talking about the Hornby website as they are the only website selling RTR TT:120

 

I think Craigw assumed that you were talking about the 3mm Association website

 

You do not seem to have grasped that the 3mm Association supports and promotes TT3 - you are talking about TT;120 which whilst similar in some respects to TT3 is basically different, and if anything, there is a case to say that TT:120 could be seen as a deadly rival to TT3.

 

While many in the 3mm community may be upset that Hornby has gone for TT:120 not 3mm, I really hope they're not going to be seen as deadly rivals. Despite the differences in scale (for 12mm gauge) there is the potential for lots of help between the scales as many products will be appropriate for both as will techniques and ideas.

I don't see why there would be a particular rivalry, 3mm is a modellers scale for those wanting a challenge, not for people wanting to mainly rely on ready to run.

It's like saying EM or P4 is a rival for OO. Or perhaps like saying HO is a rival for OO.

 

Personally I'm happily running TT3 and TT:120 stuff together - lots of people won't want to do that, but it's not exactly the Montagues and the Capulets...

[teletougos]

7 hours ago, Craigw said:

 

They are the 3mm scale society.  By your logic they should also stock 2mm and 4mm scale products.

 

You are modelling to a different scale.

 

 

3mm Society has always had a position that they would offer moral support and guidance or suggestions (within reason) for 1:120 but not actual products.  

 

You can't say fairer than that really. 

[teletougos]

1 hour ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

I was just trying to point out that the 3mm Association may not wish to actively promote TT:120

 

It's the 3mm **Society**. 

 

Worth pointing out, as there is a 2mm Association, and it could confuse someone. 

 

 

 

[natterjack]

The link to 3SMR was provided as evidence against the suggestion above that Hornby is the only source of rtr TT120  albeit that it seems be the current case for UK outline. I could have added a few more but I suspect 3SMR is a relatively hassle free supplier for UK purchasers.

[britishcolumbian]

I can see why 3 mm scale might see 1/10" scale as a rival, considering I never did get into the former, and it was only the announcements from Peco and Heljan that finally got me into getting started with modelling British.

[teletougos]

37 minutes ago, natterjack said:

 but I suspect 3SMR is a relatively hassle free supplier for UK purchasers.

 

 

Many would and do indeed say the exact opposite. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by teletougos

[britishcolumbian]

Small world, though, back when I was first getting into 1:120 in the pre-internet/infant-internet 90s, 3SMR was the first reliable source of TT I knew of (thanks to their adverts in CM) prior to discovering TT-Kurier at the newsstand at Köln Hbf.

[Ravenser]

I'm an inactive member of the 3mm Society . I'm sympathetic to the idea and possibilities of a scale or scale that is significantly smaller than OO but larger than N, and which allows scope for making things yourself without undue difficulty and without requiring every point and chassis to be handbuilt by yours truly.

 

3mm scale (1:101) is different from 1:120 scale (0.1" /ft). 

 

3mm scale is necessarily a scale in which you need to build stuff yourself, although the kit support available is by far the best for any non-RTR scale, ready-made 12mm gauge points and flexible track have been available from Peco for some years, and some RTR 12mm gauge mechanisms can be sourced from the Continent. 65 years of experience has been that making things in 3mm scale is not much harder than doing so in 4mm, a reasonable level of finesse can be achieved in the scale , and small shunting planks /"operational" terminus /FY layouts have never been seen as an "issue" by anyone

 

It's in that context - donor 12mm mechanisms - that 3SMR stock a small amount of Continental TT RTR. Clearly that also supports anyone in Britain who wants to pursue Continental outline TT

 

TT:120 is being launched as a scale with full RTR support . I believe that any new scale will need to be constructional in its early years because any new venture will always, inevitably, have less RTR /trade support than the incumbent scales . The fundamental question is whether there are possibilities , opportunities or advantages in working at a scale of 1:120, as opposed to other scales you might work to. That is a very different question to "is there more RTR available in X?"  (The comment applies as much to 7mm and OO9 as TT:120. For very many years there was no real RTR in those scales. But they developed considerably as scales/gauges based on construction, because they offered possibilities worth exploring)  

 

If TT:120 proves inconveniently small to make things for most people, then its potential and its future will be seriously limited. If it proves unsuitable for shunting planks and branch line termini its potential will be seriously restricted. 

 

To have a real future, for the foreseeable future this scale needs to be "RTR ++" - that is , a good core of RTR bulked out by constructional modelling accessible to any modeller willing to make a serious attempt at it.

 

From what I can understand, the 3mm Society committee has decided that TT:120 does not represent "an existential threat" to 3mm, and the 3mm Society carries on as before. From what I've seen elsewhere and on here 3mm modellers seem generally supportive rather than hostile to the scale, and the 3mm Society's recent survey has shown that existing 3mm modellers will stay in 3mm (see Chairman's comments in Jan 3mm Society Newsletter)

 

Every scale/gauge needs its oen eco-system of products, traders and support. What is becoming clear is that quite a lot of the constructional support for TT:120 is going to come from parts of the 3mm eco-system: Lincoln Loco , 3SMR , and Worsley Works are all from that world

 

There are two groups who do see TT:120 as a serious threat. It is clearly an alternative to N gauge as a small scale, and some N gauge modellers see it as a potential threat to support for the scale:  Comments on TT - Farish thread   That's led a few folk to try to counter any suggestions about what could be done in TT with "but you are better off doing it in N!" postings.  (For what it's worth - I don't think many committed N gauge modellers will change scale. TT:120 is potentially of interest to those on the margins, who are in N because they don't have soace for 4mm, but feel N doesn't really work for them. The loss of people who wouldn't stick around anyway isn't going to have much effect on N)

 

The other group hostile to the scale are some parts of the retail trade. This is a matter of commercial interest. There doesn't seem to have been any great enthusiasm in the retail trade for the launch of a new scale, and Hornby's decision to sell direct means that some retailers feel that success for TT:120 would open up an existential threat to their own business' survival in other areas. Hence there will be some traders who would like this scale to fail, and who might oppose it.

 

It's getting quite difficult to see a future for TT:120 based on being sold in every model shop up and down the land. Either the scale fails commercially - in which case model shops would never get involved anyway, as there will be nothing to sell, or we end up with a limited number of specialists carrying a deep range of TT:120 and most shops having none. I could see 3SMR as being one of those specialists. (And I think quite a few shop owners , if offered the chance to sell TT:120, will tell Hornby where they can stick it. Because sales will be through the Hornby website initially there will be not much evidence  to convince the sceptics that there is genuine demand for it)

 

(A parallel would be the first few decades of DCC , when the hobby in Britain very largely rejected it as a waste of effort. DCC was available from a limited number of specialist retailers such as Mackays Models. Most model shops , if asked , would have told you that DCC was an expensive but pointless product)

Edited January 30, 2023 by Ravenser

[britishcolumbian]

10 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

If TT:120 proves inconveniently small to make things for most people, then its potential and its future will be seriously limited. If it proves unsuitable for shunting planks and branch line termini its potential will be seriously restricted. 

Except we already know that's not the case, there have been multiple useful small layouts built in 1:120... even one in a guitar case that lives here in Vancouver. I've played with this one, and it's a lot of fun, kept me engrossed for several hours.

 

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

On 08/01/2023 at 17:21, britishcolumbian said:

tl;dr next-quarter-only thinking.

You seem to think TT:120 is going to put all other scales out of business in the first year! 🤣

 

When other suppliers (be they manufacturers or retailers) join Hornby in the (UK outline) TT:120 market, people will buy their stuff for the simple reason that (unless Hornby do a Terrier on them) they will offer items that Hornby don't. If TT:120 turns out to be a goldmine, even that wouldn't necessarily deter a competitor.

 

For now, Hornby give the impression of wanting the whole thing to themselves and everybody else seems content with that. When and if Hornby demonstrate commercial viability, some may join in, others won't, simply because it might not fit how they run the rest of their business. For example, I'd think that with O, O-16.5, OO and N on the go, Dapol could reasonably consider a fifth scale to be overstretch...

 

However, there is no cut-off date for getting a share of the TT:120 market, just as there never was, and demonstrably still isn't, with OO or any other scale. 

 

Just as nobody produces all of the established scales, they won't all get into making TT:120, however successful it might prove to be. For new entrants four, five or even twenty years down the road, not having been in from the beginning won't make a blind bit of difference. If it did, nobody but Hornby would be producing OO today!  

 

John

 

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[bradfordbuffer]

4 hours ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

 

Apologies, I agree with you, I was just trying to point out that the 3mm Association may not wish to actively promote TT:120

Yes and we hate 00 h0 0 S and especially N!

 

In reality... quite a bit of ancillary items may be of use to 3mmers!....just like 00 using selective ho stuff in h0!...quite a few 3mmers who model narrow gauge ie 12mm gauge 🙊 will use peco or Hornby track as will be better looking than h0m peco track...so now the mushroom cloud of hornbys announcement has had to clear let's see what we can use in 3mm.

3mm charter states promoting scale 1:101 ish but nothing stopping a tt120 modeler paying the 20quid annual membership fee to use 3mm shop!

[britishcolumbian]

23 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

You seem to think TT:120 is going to put all other scales out of business in the first year!

Please explain how you came to this conclusion based on anything I've said, because I can't figure it out - most especially not in connection to what you quoted.