Hornby announce TT:120

[BachelorBoy]

13 hours ago, J-Lewis said:

 I also wonder about so many thousands of second hand 00 locos coming onto the market due to demographic changes,

Is that euphemism for "railway modellers dying"?

[ixionmodels]

I am one of those people who have difficulty grasping the size of a model scale without actually having something to hold in my hand. I have looked at the TT:120 display in my local model shop in Newcastle (NSW, Australia) but am too cheap to pay for an orphan loco or wagon just to have it sitting on a shelf. I had some spare time yesterday, and a troll through the Thingiverse website turned up a few 3D files suitable for printing in 1:120. This is a doddle for me because, as well as Ixion Models, I also co-own West Edge 3D, a full-colour 3D printing business.
I loaded an STL file of a static model of a TT:120 7-plank wagon into a simple 3D painting program and gave it a black chassis, buffers and ironwork, and red sides and ends. For fun, the oval plate on the solebar was coloured yellow. Out of a misguided sense of mischief I then resized a Hudswell Clarke 0-6-0ST body file (that my Ixion partner Phil Badger had made some years ago for the 2mm Scale Association) to 1:120. (This is the same engine Ixion made in 7mm scale). I ‘painted’ the first one all over green, but it wasn’t very convincing, so I put in a bit more effort and made a red one with a black smokebox and funnel, and a yellow cabside Maker’s plate. I printed them all on our Stratasys J55 and here they are. My evaluation?

 

The cyan, magenta and yellow resins the J55 uses are transparent unless of a certain thickness, and this is painfully obvious on the wagon body. The cab roof of the red loco body suffers from the same issue. Nevertheless, for a couple of hours’ work, I got some properly sized models to help me understand the physical size of TT:120 models. I had previously printed some of our West Edge 3D cars and human figures in 1:120 for display on Frontline Hobbies’ Hornby TT:120 display shelf and found that it truly is a beguiling and attractive scale. 

The photos here show the models described above posed in front of an Ixion N gauge ‘Manor’;  then on my hand;  and also the above-mentioned TT:120 display in Frontline Hobbies.  
[Warning: commercial plug.] All the cars and figures shown in the third photo and many more can be seen and purchased at www.westedge3d.com.au/shop; just choose your scale, N to Gauge 1, from the drop-down menu. 

Lindsay. 

[J-Lewis]

36 minutes ago, BachelorBoy said:

Is that euphemism for "railway modellers dying"?

Can’t take it with them.  So those models will hit the second hand market at knock down prices.

[ellocoloco]

9 hours ago, Ravenser said:

There is certainly a market for budget models

 

I enjoyed reading your post and completely agree. 

 

It may have passed by most British outline modellers that Hornby International have released a number of models in the last couple of years branded as Hobby/Loisir under the Lima, Jouef and Electrotren brands. Of interest to me were the Electrotren 596 diesel railcars. 21pin, AWD, front and rear directional LEDs, interior detail and a crisp colour scheme. These were newly tooled and although more expensive than the ex-Lima RR models still represent good value (to me) and are cheap compared to many European manufacturers, many of whom also have hobby ranges. I would be happy if future releases were to this standard.

 

But we drift further away from TT120.......

 

 

[andrewshimmin]

Returning to TT120 and future models, so far we've not had any official Southern steam annoucements.

There is the widely expected, but not yet annouced, LBSCR Terrier possibly coming at some point. Otherwise nothing.

 

I wonder if a N15 King Arthur might be a good option? Would it be possible to share tooling with S15 as well as N15 even though they have different wheel diameters? There are several variants and possible liveries, and they were a numerous and long lived class.

Otherwise you would think a Southern mogul (N or U) would be a good choice - again several variants if the different wheel sizes can be accomodated and several liveries.

 

The Southern had lots of medium tank locos, such as M7 etc, which would make nice sized models and again were long lived so lots of livery options.

 

I suspect people would like to see Bulleid pacifics, although I'm not so interested personally. 

Mind you, there's at least a prototype for them running short trains on branch lines!

[teletougos]

3 hours ago, ixionmodels said:

The photos here show the models described above posed in front of an Ixion N gauge ‘Manor’;  then on my hand;  and also the above-mentioned TT:120 display in Frontline Hobbies.  
[Warning: commercial plug.] All the cars and figures shown in the third photo and many more can be seen and purchased at www.westedge3d.com.au/shop; just choose your scale, N to Gauge 1, from the drop-down menu. 

Lindsay. 

 

I'm not going to say I knew you were going to do that, but . . . 

[Ben B]

3 hours ago, andrewshimmin said:

 

 

I suspect people would like to see Bulleid pacifics, although I'm not so interested personally. 

Mind you, there's at least a prototype for them running short trains on branch lines!

 

Given how the range is shaping up, I'd expect the first Southern prototype would be an air-smoothed Pacific, probably in Golden Arrow decor to haul the Pullmans. I'd like to see smaller, more 'everyday' prototypes, but I'd guess the trend will stay with the glamour express  locomotives.

 

...that said, a tatty Spam Can with three coaches, somewhere along the withered arm in the early 60's, does appeal :)

[F-UnitMad]

5 hours ago, ixionmodels said:

[Warning: commercial plug.] All the cars and figures shown in the third photo and many more can be seen and purchased at www.westedge3d.com.au/shop;

Warning: happy Customer (no other connection, etc) endorsement ahead...

Off Topic from Hornby TT120 (but bear with me)...

WestEdge 3D colour-printed figures are fantastic - a real game changer!! Mine are in 1:48 US O Scale, but demonstrate how good they are...

 

 

 

Shameless plug mode /off.

Back to Hornby TT120 - if they put the new Class 50 and/or HST in a train set with coaches & track, I would be seriously tempted. My first train set was a Hornby HST in 1978; I'd almost buy a TT120 HST set purely for the nostalgia, if it became available.

[J-Lewis]

28 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

 

Back to Hornby TT120 - if they put the new Class 50 and/or HST in a train set with coaches & track, I would be seriously tempted. My first train set was a Hornby HST in 1978; I'd almost buy a TT120 HST set purely for the nostalgia, if it became available.

You are in luck.  There is a GWR HST set due to be released in the new year, also a Mainline Express diesel set which hasn’t been content confirmed yet, but is expected to feature either the Class 50 or the Class 47.

[F-UnitMad]

2 minutes ago, J-Lewis said:

You are in luck.  There is a GWR HST set due to be released in the new year, also a Mainline Express diesel set which hasn’t been content confirmed yet, but is expected to feature either the Class 50 or the Class 47.

It would be the BR Blue I'd like, but in a set with track (assuming I hadn't succumbed & bought some already) & at least 2 Mk3s - my original set did look silly with just one coach!! 🙄🤦‍♂️🤣

[teletougos]

41 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

Warning: happy Customer (no other connection, etc) endorsement ahead...

Off Topic from Hornby TT120 (but bear with me)...

WestEdge 3D colour-printed figures are fantastic - a real game changer!! Mine are in 1:48 US O Scale, but demonstrate how good they are...

 

For a minute I thought Westedge had done that boxcar in TT. I'd have taken five. 

[J-Lewis]

55 minutes ago, teletougos said:

For a minute I thought Westedge had done that boxcar in TT. I'd have taken five. 

Apparently after the success of their recent SW1200 re-run MTB are planning a new TT wagon and a new TT locomotive for US outline TT:120.

[J-Lewis]

On 17/11/2023 at 15:36, F-UnitMad said:

It would be the BR Blue I'd like, but in a set with track (assuming I hadn't succumbed & bought some already) & at least 2 Mk3s - my original set did look silly with just one coach!! 🙄🤦‍♂️🤣

Unfortunately no BR Blue Set, it’s only a GWR version.  However Hornby have made a few bundles over the past year with the various steam locos, coaches and track etc. so maybe they will do a BR blue bundle at some point.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, J-Lewis said:

Unfortunately no BR Blue Set, it’s only a GWR version.  However Hornby have made a few bundles over the past year with the various steam locos, coaches and track etc. so maybe they will do a BR blue bundle at some point.

Is that a change from the launch plans? The original catalogue suggested an LNER HST set on page 5 - or does that come later?

[Hobby]

10 minutes ago, Gatesheadgeek said:

Is that a change from the launch plans? The original catalogue suggested an LNER HST set on page 5 - or does that come later?

 

Yes, and I expect its to do with what will sell. BR liveries have "come back" several times recently, and as with the GWR livery is well known. An LNER livery would be pretty niche. I expect it'll come along in due course, after, no doubt, the Virgin livery!

Edited November 18, 2023 by Hobby

[J-Lewis]

1 hour ago, Gatesheadgeek said:

Is that a change from the launch plans? The original catalogue suggested an LNER HST set on page 5 - or does that come later?

No you are right, it’s LNER I misremembered :)   At least I was right about it not being BR Blue and Grey .

 

Interesting that LNER is not a livery listed for the HST individual packs?  Which suggests the sets might have unique liveries.  I wonder if the Mainline Express set might feature something unique also?  If it’s a full blue Class 50 I will be sorely tempted.  

Edited November 18, 2023 by J-Lewis
Spilling Errurs

[Guest]

10 hours ago, J-Lewis said:

No you are right, it’s LNER I misremembered :)   At least I was right about it not being BR Blue and Grey .

 

Interesting that LNER is not a livery listed for the HST individual packs?  Which suggests the sets might have unique liveries.  I wonder if the Mainline Express set might feature something unique also?  If it’s a full blue Class 50 I will be sorely tempted.  

 

Easily done! Not sure if I’ll get it anyway, although it wasn’t a bad livery. Original GNER would be better! It will be interesting to see what they do, and yes a BR Blue 50 would be good.

 

It makes sense to me if they do a different livery in sets. The main train set market will likely prefer the colourful LNER livery, while other modellers & collectors will get it too if it’s the only way.

[J-Lewis]

On 19/11/2023 at 09:11, Gatesheadgeek said:

The main train set market will likely prefer the colourful LNER livery, while other modellers & collectors will get it too if it’s the only way.

It occurs to me that this LNER set might be the first example of coaches that are set specific?  So if you wanted a full length train of LNER MK3’s it wouldn’t be possible to create it?  (Assuming the set has only two or three coaches) you’d need to purchase multiple sets to get a longer train, which not many people would be willing to do, unless LNER livery is also due to be released as standalone items.

[GenericRMWebUsername]

4 hours ago, J-Lewis said:

It occurs to me that this LNER set might be the first example of coaches that are set specific?  So if you wanted a full length train of LNER MK3’s it wouldn’t be possible to create it?  (Assuming the set has only two or three coaches) you’d need to purchase multiple sets to get a longer train, which not many people would be willing to do, unless LNER livery is also due to be released as standalone items.

I wouldn't be shocked if their willingness to release the coaches for a full train will be dependent on the sales of their other HSTs. TT120 is a scale that lends itself to longer train formations. If people show willingness to invest in an entire HST formation (like yours truly 😅), I don't see why they wouldn't make the supplementary coaches available. The fact that Hornby released full HST formations was indicator of their seriousness to make TT120 into a real scale. When they all go on sale there will be 29 different HST related products in the range including the forthcoming set (5 HST Pairs, 23 individual coaches, and one set). By mid year 2024, 28 of the products should be on sale. 

 

I would be curious to know if typical Z/TT/N-Gauge modelers spend more of the their budget on coaches and wagons than a comparable HO/OO/O modeler. HO/OO/O modelers might spend their money on new locomotives rather than chasing after wagons to make entirely accurate train formation lengths due to the constraints of layout size. Obviously, there are plenty of HO/OO/O who do model accurate train formations, I'm just curious about your typical modeler. I bet some firms have done that analysis.

[GenericRMWebUsername]

On 18/11/2023 at 16:41, J-Lewis said:

No you are right, it’s LNER I misremembered :)   At least I was right about it not being BR Blue and Grey .

 

Interesting that LNER is not a livery listed for the HST individual packs?  Which suggests the sets might have unique liveries.  I wonder if the Mainline Express set might feature something unique also?  If it’s a full blue Class 50 I will be sorely tempted.  

Class 50 did not have as many varied liveries as Class 37s or 47s, but you're right a BR Blue Class 50 is a major hole in the releases. They could also release further Large Logo subtypes of the Class 50. There is still much more this tooling can give in the short-term! 

 

Class 37s and 47s are going to be insane once released. If there was one diesel I would want to own the tooling for it would have to be a Class 47. The amount of different variants and liveries that loco has had over its lifespan coupled with its widespread use make it such a versatile tooling. Simon confirmed way back that they were going to release a TT Class 56 too. If they can reuse elements of the Class 47 tooling on the Class 56, that only increases the addressable models that can be released from that single tooling. 

 

The Class 37 is also one worth fighting over with its many liveries and subtypes. And obviously the Class 66 is going to end up being on the same level as the Class 37 and 47 in terms of what can be released. Increasing the addressable market with European Class 66 variants is just perfect. We know there is a market for European Class 66s/77s because Marklin/Trix have released them in HO and N. And the Class 66s are priced competitively. I think many TT modelers on the continent will be happy! 

[BrakeCoach]

my take on TT scale:

TT seems like a good choice for working with smaller spaces. It is also correctly scaled as well--as British TT was nonexistent for a while, it has the benefit of not being stuck from decades-old technological limitations. This allows for better scaling of the models, and it isn't overscale like OO and British N are from its international counterparts HO and N. However, at its current state, I am not sure if I should build my layout in that scale, especially since there are even more limited choices than N scale does, and while an international scale, it isn't the most popular scale outside of Europe it seems.

 

Somehow British N gauge (1:148) and Japanese narrow gauge N scale (1:150) seem more compatible for my perspective.

Edited November 20, 2023 by BrakeCoach

[natterjack]

17 minutes ago, GenericRMWebUsername said:

And the Class 66s are priced competitively.

At the moment- this and the Class 50 both struck me as rather low priced, so I pre-ordered both!

[natterjack]

4 minutes ago, BrakeCoach said:

Somehow British N gauge (1:148) and Japanese narrow gauge N scale (1:150) seem more compatible for my perspective.

Points taken, but the Hornby launch does appear to be reflected by a resurgence of TT120 manufacture by a number of European Continental manufacturers, including items of North American prototypes. The business model for TT120, essentially providing a product addressing manipulative practicability within available space, applies to a great many urban situations worldwide.

It is worth reiterating that Hornby already had  production of HO, TT120 and N within the group (Arnold etc)  when planning their 'miniature' UK outline venture.

[GenericRMWebUsername]

1 hour ago, BrakeCoach said:

my take on TT scale:

TT seems like a good choice for working with smaller spaces. It is also correctly scaled as well--as British TT was nonexistent for a while, it has the benefit of not being stuck from decades-old technological limitations. This allows for better scaling of the models, and it isn't overscale like OO and British N are from its international counterparts HO and N. However, at its current state, I am not sure if I should build my layout in that scale, especially since there are even more limited choices than N scale does, and while an international scale, it isn't the most popular scale outside of Europe it seems.

 

Somehow British N gauge (1:148) and Japanese narrow gauge N scale (1:150) seem more compatible for my perspective.

I think this is a good summary with some of the pros and cons. I noticed that in some quarters people were resistant to TT because they felt like it was an attack on the scale they loved. OO, OO9, O, N, and HO modelers all looked at TT120 with suspicion. I think an easy remedy to these concerns is to state frankly that TT120 is not designed to put other scales out of business. While British TT120 has excellent advantages (the more accurate scaling, a good trade off on size vs. detail, easier handling's than N, interoperability with continental stock), there are some significant disadvantages (we're dependent on a single manufacturer, it's not as small as N, nor as detailed as OO). Each scale has accompanying advantages and disadvantages. TT120 is just another choice in the British model train world. And that can only be a good thing! 

 

1 hour ago, natterjack said:

At the moment- this and the Class 50 both struck me as rather low priced, so I pre-ordered both!

Nice! At 150 Euros RRP, the Class 66 is pretty compelling in Britain and the continent alike! To give you an idea of what the European Class 66 market looks like... 

https://www.modellbahnshop-lippe.com/Diesel+Locomotive/Diesel+Locomotive/Trix-22696/gb/modell_363634.html 

 

That's a very premium HO loco with sound, many features, and an excellent finish. So you get what you pay for. But if you're a European modeler looking for something more attainable, this new Hornby Class 66 is a perfect addition to the market. I suspect Hornby has been able to price it so aggressively because they expect high volumes to make up the difference. 

 

1 hour ago, natterjack said:

Points taken, but the Hornby launch does appear to be reflected by a resurgence of TT120 manufacture by a number of European Continental manufacturers, including items of North American prototypes. The business model for TT120, essentially providing a product addressing manipulative practicability within available space, applies to a great many urban situations worldwide.

It is worth reiterating that Hornby already had  production of HO, TT120 and N within the group (Arnold etc)  when planning their 'miniature' UK outline venture.

Agreed. Part of the fun of this scale for me is seeing what will be released. If I were a North American model train manufacturer I would go in Hornby/Roco style and launch a whole range. You could define the TT120 market in the United States in a similar way to how Hornby is defining it in the UK. 

[BrakeCoach]

2 hours ago, natterjack said:

Points taken, but the Hornby launch does appear to be reflected by a resurgence of TT120 manufacture by a number of European Continental manufacturers, including items of North American prototypes. The business model for TT120, essentially providing a product addressing manipulative practicability within available space, applies to a great many urban situations worldwide.

It is worth reiterating that Hornby already had  production of HO, TT120 and N within the group (Arnold etc)  when planning their 'miniature' UK outline venture.

I didn't know TT was also rising for US models as well. Good to know!