GWR diagram P4 permanent way open wagon - how were they used?

[magmouse]

This arrived today:

 

 

It's a 7mm scale Peco (ex Webster) GWR P4 permanent way wagon - I picked it up on eBay for a good price (unusually). The brake gear is smashed, it needs a clean-up and repaint, but all easy enough to do.

 

However, I only got it because it was a good price and I like to rescue 'orphan' wagons - it isn't on my 'road map' for building stock. That's because in my plan for Netherport, my 'one-day' layout project, there isn't a need for permanent way vehicles.

 

So, I am looking for a reason why one of these might be in a train or siding on its own. All the photos I have seen of them 'in action' show them in long rakes of similar wagons. Does anyone have evidence or information about solo usage of wagons of this type?

 

Thanks for any suggestions or info.

 

Nick.

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Being primarily a spoil wagon, as you note it's preferred habitat would be along with a rake of other similar wagons, but to justify a single usage it could have been cut out of a rake due to a fault and dumped in a convenient siding awaiting collection in the next convenient train?

 

Mike.

[MartinRS]

If it's a 'cripple' you can save yourself some time. Just leave the brake gear as it is !?

[magmouse]

2 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Being primarily a spoil wagon, as you note it's preferred habitat would be along with a rake of other similar wagons, but to justify a single usage it could have been cut out of a rake due to a fault and dumped in a convenient siding awaiting collection in the next convenient train?

 

Mike.

 

Thanks, Mike and Martin.

 

Yes, I’d thought about it being a faulty wagon parked in a siding. It still implies the ballast or spoil train has been along, which I don’t really have a justification for. I suppose I am hoping for a photo showing one being used for a smaller job, such as replacing a couple of damaged sleepers.

Yes, I’d thought about that. It still implies the ballast or spoil train has been along, which I don’t really have a justification for. I suppose I am hoping for a photo showing one being used for a smaller job, such as replacing a couple of damaged sleepers.

 

I have seen a picture from much later than my 1908 period of one loaded with ‘junk’ which appears to be some sleepers and other impossible to identify objects. the trouble is there aren’t that many pictures of them, and mostly you can see what’s inside or they are empty.

 

Nick.

[Wheatley]

Plenty of evidence in later years of similar wagons being used effectively as a skip in a corner of a yard - old rotten fence posts, odd lengths of wire coiled up, bits of packing - anything brought back from site which couldn't be re-used somewhere else.  

Edited November 1, 2022 by Wheatley

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, Wheatley said:

Plenty of evidence in later years of similar wagons being used effectively as a skip in a corner of a yard - old rotten fence posts, odd lengths of wire coiled up, bits of packing - anything brought back from site which couldn't be re-used somewhere else.  

 

Thanks, and yes indeed. In my 1908 period, though, yards seem to have been kept pretty tidy. If I can't find a logic to it now, I'll probably just do it up and keep it empty, and worry about it when I actually have layout to put it on!

 

Nick.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

If all else fails, buy another 20 or so?!

 

Mike.

[magmouse]

28 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

If all else fails, buy another 20 or so?!

 

Mike.

 

Like this?

 

 

Then I need the ballast brake van. And a Dean Goods. And...

 

Nick.

[JimC]

I have a vague recollection - so don't place much value on this, I could be wrong - that they might have been occasionally used for delivery of sand to sand furnaces.

[magmouse]

7 minutes ago, JimC said:

I have a vague recollection - so don't place much value on this, I could be wrong - that they might have been occasionally used for delivery of sand to sand furnaces.

 

Ah - that could be a good shout, if correct. Which raises an interesting question of how sand was delivered to smaller sheds and stabling points where locos might need to top up. Just loose, and shovelled into a barrow to put in store before being dried? Or in sacks?

 

Nick.

[tomparryharry]

PW gangers would & could 'order up' single wagon loads , as required. They could also be part of a rake, as a larger job.  

[cctransuk]

On 01/11/2022 at 11:51, JimC said:

I have a vague recollection - so don't place much value on this, I could be wrong - that they might have been occasionally used for delivery of sand to sand furnaces.

 

If you look in 'the bible', the Diagram / Lot table gives specific numbers for those built for the M&E department for loco sand traffic, and also the sheds to which they were individually allocated.

 

CJI.

[magmouse]

11 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

PW gangers would & could 'order up' single wagon loads , as required. They could also be part of a rake, as a larger job.  

 

Thanks - presumably single wagon load traffic would come in a normal goods train and be dropped off at the nearest yard or siding?

 

10 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

If you look in 'the bible', the Diagram / Lot table gives specific numbers for those built for the M&E department for loco sand traffic, and also the sheds to which they were individually allocated.

 

CJI.

 

Thanks for this - very helpful. I am away from home at the moment, but I will take a look as soon as I am back.

 

Nick.

[tomparryharry]

14 hours ago, magmouse said:

 

Thanks - presumably single wagon load traffic would come in a normal goods train and be dropped off at the nearest yard or siding?

 

 

Thanks for this - very helpful. I am away from home at the moment, but I will take a look as soon as I am back.

 

Nick.

 Yes, what is more commonly known as 'trip' working'.  Sand was usually as wagon load. Delivery frequency was by consumption, so a large shed (say, Aberdare) would have a wagonload every 2-3 days, and smaller sheds ( Wallingford ) less so. Winter consumption increased demand significantly. Coal ordering was handled by Pontypool Road office, plus another (I can't remember).  Locomotive ash & clinker was a common by-product, but, once again, I can't remember that either.

[magmouse]

10 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

 Yes, what is more commonly known as 'trip' working'.  Sand was usually as wagon load. Delivery frequency was by consumption, so a large shed (say, Aberdare) would have a wagonload every 2-3 days, and smaller sheds ( Wallingford ) less so. Winter consumption increased demand significantly. Coal ordering was handled by Pontypool Road office, plus another (I can't remember).  Locomotive ash & clinker was a common by-product, but, once again, I can't remember that either.

 

Thanks - would the sand have been delivered loose? I don't think I have ever seen this traffic modelled.

 

Nick.

[tomparryharry]

Yes, by wagonload for sand. The usual weight was 'about' 10 ton, but other wagonloads varied.

[Mike Huxley]

If you have a Loco shed, these wagons were also used to remove the ash from the dropped fires to be used in other locations, nothing was wasted in those early years of the GWR.