1960s Metal frame Addition to Front of GWR & LMS Tenders For 25KV Wire Safety

[justin]

Has anyone seen any official information on the installation of the metal frame fitted to GWR tenders and LMS Fowler 3500 gallon tenders to remind staff about the overhead wires (and did it have an official name?) Picture below of one on a Churchward tender at Barry

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/155601626@N07/52484564265/in/photolist-2nXT7qr 

 

A few questions that I would be interested to have answers to (speculation is also fine but could you make it clear that is what it is)

 

Was it to remind staff about standing up on the tenders or to discourage them from waving fireirons around?

 

When did fitting start and what depots were involved as I get the impression it was targeted at locos that might find themselves under the wires rather than a blanket introduction

 

Were they fitted at depots or works

 

The only colour photos I have seen are of Shrewsbury based GWR Manor class locos. On these it was painted red. Were they always painted this colour

[The Stationmaster]

The Western pattern ones were there as a reminder - basically to stop Firemen climbing into the tender to shovel coal forward and to take care at water columns and when swinging fire irons around.  they were probably fitted at mani sheds and possible at works and they were of course common on 'Manors' as they were by then the most likely Western type with a small tender to work into Crewe.

[Mallard60022]

I learn something new almost every day. Thanks.

P

[pH]

Some Scottish Region engines had them fitted, too.

 

Here’s a Jumbo:

https://flic.kr/p/cfvfdC

 

and a J37 (just visible behind the cab):

https://flic.kr/p/cfTLNE

 

[The Stationmaster]

You can see the WR version reasonably clearly on my pic of 780s (ignore the streaks by it as they down to dust on the print)

 

 

It can also be seen in my pic of 7816 on the Up Pilot at reading - note the initials on the tender

 

 

[pH]

I didn’t realize the versions were so different. I’ve seen the ScR version described as a ‘bedstead’.

[kevinlms]

How many loco crew were injured/killed before these modifications were fitted? Usually only a written instruction, before stronger action taken.

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, kevinlms said:

How many loco crew were injured/killed before these modifications were fitted? Usually only a written instruction, before stronger action taken.

I believe there was at least one instance of a Fireman who was knocked off a tender by a flashover (or possibly by a section of overhead which had been turned off but not earthed?).  I don't think there were any incidents before warning signs were fitted to various locos etc.

[Michael Hodgson]

33 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I believe there was at least one instance of a Fireman who was knocked off a tender by a flashover (or possibly by a section of overhead which had been turned off but not earthed?).  I don't think there were any incidents before warning signs were fitted to various locos etc.

No doubt management would be considered negligent in law if they didn't provide signs, but I have my doubts about the effectiveness of electrification warning signs. 

 

If you're doing a job that you've done daily for years, do you really even notice them?  Presumably when not under the wires (most workings on the Western) you would still be climbing onto the tender the way you always had, so force of habit would apply.  Measures such as removing water columns from lines with OHLE and removing footsteps from diesels are far more effective, though it obviously doesn't help a fireman when coal needs raking forward.

[justin]

On 10/11/2022 at 19:16, pH said:

I didn’t realize the versions were so different. I’ve seen the ScR version described as a ‘bedstead’.

Though the LMR version applied to Fowler 3500 gallon tenders was similar visually to the WR version, the LMR also had a bedstead for some of the Ivatt 3500 gallon tenders fitted to class 4  2-6-0 no. 43000-43161. According to  John Jennison  in LMS Preview No. 3 the drawings described these as a protection device and he says they were probably introduced for working under overhead electrified lines with fitting starting in 1961. Only 20 tenders were fitted. Looking at the locomotive allocation history most of the locos with this type of guard were at Saltley, Wellingborough or Nuneaton in the early 1960s though there were other locos of this class at these sheds in the same period which weren't fitted with it.

 

 

[bécasse]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I don't think there were any incidents before warning signs were fitted to various locos etc.

The warning signs appeared (very quickly) in the summer of 1960. Although there had been earlier sections of 25 kV electrification (Lancaster-Morecambe-Heysham and Colchester-Clacton-Walton), that was pretty much the time that the first main-line sections were switched on, which suggests that the subject had already been thought about (ASLEF perhaps) before any incidents occurred. There was also a pretty graphic BTF staff instructional film which warned of the dangers (and especially of flashovers) but I can't remember now exactly when that appeared.

[Miss Prism]

Why does the mixed traffic livery panel stop so far from the rear end of the side?

[pH]

2 hours ago, justin said:

Though the LMR version applied to Fowler 3500 gallon tenders was similar visually to the WR version, the LMR also had a bedstead for some of the Ivatt 3500 gallon tenders fitted to class 4  2-6-0 no. 43000-43161.

 
I had forgotten about that version:

 

https://flic.kr/p/cgKYEq

 

 Interesting that it was at the back of the coal space, in contrast to the versions already discussed above. I wonder if any BR Standards which had tenders of a similar design had frames in that position. I feel a photo search coming on.

 

[Wheatley]

7 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Why does the mixed traffic livery panel stop so far from the rear end of the side?

Some of the Std 4MT 2-6-0s were similarly oddly lined out. I wonder if it was a quirk of one particular works ?

[justin]

On 12/11/2022 at 21:10, Wheatley said:

Some of the Std 4MT 2-6-0s were similarly oddly lined out. I wonder if it was a quirk of one particular works 

It was a variation applied by the London Midland and Scottish regions from the late 1950s. By shortening the length of the lining it allowed for the second style BR logo to be centralised within the panel area while avoiding as many rivet heads as possible. Information from British Railways, Standard Steam Locomotives volume 2 p175 by the RCTS