Loft layout in 4mm

[EasternO]

UPDATE: I have decided on 4mm scale due to limited available space. Still deciding on OO or P4, but will make a temporary test layout in OO first.

 

I have a few 7mm kits to build (still undecided on O or S7) so I'd like to build a test track and something to run them around me while working on other projects. It doesn't have to be complicated, but when I'm in a playing mood, some sidings to play with would be nice.

 

I'm not interested in passenger stock, so if any trains are going to be running they will be freight - box vans and maybe some open wagons. As it's a test track I will not be building a 'layout' with scenics. Wire-operated turnouts and DCC control.

 

My current kits are 0-6-0 short wheelbase steam, but I'd also like a couple Type 2 diesels - nothing bigger than that. This is my loft space. Dimensions in cm

 

And this is what I have come up with.

 

The critical area is the bottom left corner as this is where the hatch is. I think I've drawn 6ft rad curves on this plan, but ideally I'd like to reduce this corner so I don't bang my head on the way up. The roof eve is on the right side, and I don't think I can get quite as close to the wall as I've drawn it. I have a bit more space freedom at the top end, which is where I work from anyway. I will likely build the track myself by soldering onto PCB or similar.

 

Can I make it more interesting? Have I optimised the space available? I looked at double tracking the straights, but I don't think it's possible - certainly not on the right side, but maybe on the left. I know there are some clever designers here because I've been looking at a few in this section while researching. Please, be my guest. Building will start in January.

 

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by EasternO

[F-UnitMad]

244cm is only 8ft, at the bottom of your plan. So you must have drawn 3ft radius curves, not 6ft.

Short wheelbase 0-6-0 locos will negotiate those and pull short wagons, although buffer lock may be an issue propelling. Bo-Bo diesels (class 20, 25?) might get round those corners, but won't pull stock round them. As it's a test track, that might not be an issue. 

I can tell you that from experience. Also that a Minerva Class 14 won't even rail on 3ft radius curves let alone go round them, as it's effectively an 0-8-0 long wheelbase loco.

 

[EasternO]

Thank you. Radius and diameter are my Achiles heel.

[Ray H]

I'm in the (on-going) process of building an O gauge layout in 18ft x 8ft garage. Some curves are a minimum of 39 inches. I've no intention of owning anything larger than an 0-6-0 but we've run short wheel based Heljan diesels - the likes of Class 40s can't hack the curves.

 

I had set out to have a ruling gradient of around 1:55 and limit the trains to around 6 wagons. I discovered yesterday as I was returning stock to where it had been prior to some work on the layout, that at least one loco can definitely handle around a dozen vehicles up a gradient slightly steeper than that.

 

I appreciate that you might not currently be planning to have gradients but its worth catering for them (and numerous other things unwanted at present) to make upgrading easier as the O gauge bug bites deeper.😐

Edited November 20, 2022 by Ray H

[EasternO]

Good to know, thanks Ray.

[Grovenor]

Given the sizes there your 0 v S7 decision is pretty much made for you. 🙂

[Harlequin]

@EasternO Could you have a lifting section over the loft hatch so that (a.) the plan is less constrained by the access and (b.) you don't bump your head?

 

If so, that would open up the design possibilities.

 

Edit: P.S. Where is the loft hatch on the plan (measurements, please) and which way do you face when coming up?

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by Harlequin

[EasternO]

11 hours ago, Harlequin said:

@EasternO Could you have a lifting section over the loft hatch so that (a.) the plan is less constrained by the access and (b.) you don't bump your head?

 

If so, that would open up the design possibilities.

 

Edit: P.S. Where is the loft hatch on the plan (measurements, please) and which way do you face when coming up?

 

I don't think I could include a lifting section I'm afraid. The hatch is in the bottom left corner, beneath the curve. I don't have measurements at the moment, but I'd say it extends 1/3 of the width of the floor and enter to the middle of the space.

 

This isn't the whole loft but is all that I have to play with. We've sectioned off other parts of it for storing specific things. There are 'rooms' top and bottom with small doors to access. Similarly, there is a 'room' to the left. The track will be eye level when I'm sitting to allow for the small doors to access the other spaces.

 

I think I may have optimised the space I have available to create a loop with a few storage sidings. I may have another play tomorrow to see if there's anything else I could do to squeeze in a bit of extra storage at the top end.

[EasternO]

This is an alternative plan. I've sacrificed the length of the loop, which is no big deal, and shortened the 3 small sidings, but I've added a longer siding for a couple diesels. The short sidings will still accommodate my 0-6-0 tank locos when I build them. If anyone has any suggestions or alternatives, I'd like to see them.

 

[EasternO]

Is S7 definitely out of the question with either of these plans?

[EasternO]

I've been thinking a fair amount over my chosen scale and reluctantly decided to drop it. I don't have the space for what I'd like to achieve.

 

Having already decided against 4mm as being too small for me, I looked at S scale. It's only marginally larger than 4mm so decided against that too. What I'd like is something closer between 4mm and 7mm. The problem with that is there are no supplies - rail and wheels in particular - that are ready off the shelf.

 

Are there any small businesses that can produce custom drawn rail? Failing that, is any rail currently available that would be approx 5.5mm scale?

[Grovenor]

7 hours ago, EasternO said:

Are there any small businesses that can produce custom drawn rail? Failing that, is any rail currently available that would be approx 5.5mm scale?

That's so close to S that it would make little or no difference. Might as well use S. There is at least some basic supplies and a society to help. http://www.s-scale.org.uk/main.htm

It is significantly bigger than 4mm, even if 4.76mm may not look it at first sight. And 1:64 is convenient to work to.

[EasternO]

1 hour ago, Grovenor said:

That's so close to S that it would make little or no difference. Might as well use S.

S would be between what I'm looking for and 4mm, so for me still a bit too small, but thanks. I was thinking of using their rail and chairs though, even if somewhat under scale. The supply of scale rail is my biggest issue at the moment.

 

I've ordered some wagon drawings from the NRM so I'll virtually mock up a scale wheel against S rail head and see what happens.

[Ray H]

Your proposed/suggested change of scale puzzles me.

 

Your first post indicated that you were planning a test track with 0-6-0Ts and nothing larger than a Class 2 diesel. Coaches (and potentially other long vehicles) were excluded from your thinking. You also implied that you weren't intending to go mad with the scenery. Has this changed?

 

You've now mentioned track making (consequent upon the scale/gauge change).

 

I believe that you have more than enough space to achieve your original aims in O gauge, where 6ft radius curves wouldn't be compulsory with the loco sizes you've previously mentioned.

 

Have you considered having the sidings on the outside of the oval but across the end rather than down one side?

 

Talk of shunting wagons makes me think that your intention is to build something more like a layout and not so much like a test track.

 

I fear that following your latest suggested route would involve a lot of work before you can get trains running and even if it is more of a layout than a test track, does the not to scale rail size actually matter?

[EasternO]

Hello Ray. Nothing has changed except for the general lack of enthusiasm for the available radius on my corners. I would prefer 7mm scale but 4mm is too small for me. I'm pretty sure I mentioned making my own track previously, but it will be functional rather than for display.

 

What I enjoy about this hobby is designing and building wagons, rather than running a layout, but as I'm building them it would be a good idea to test that they are fit for purpose by running them on track and turnouts. If 7mm is going to be more trouble than a smaller scale - but larger than 4mm - then I'd be content to choose that. I can repurpose my designs for this new scale.

 

Possibly, my first loco design would be an early R24 shunting tank where no off-the-shelf wheels exist anyway in 7mm, so I'd have to make my own. All along I've accounted for having making my own wheels to some extent, so it doesn't worry me too much. If I was going to choose 7mm I would much prefer S7, but as mentioned before there are serious doubts about my radii. I can't change this - unless I get a bigger house, which is unlikely.

 

What I'll probably do is design to a scale I can accommodate and use 1:64 track with exact scale wheels is 5.5mm scale. If I absolutely have to I'll use check rails on my corners.

[EasternO]

I've thrown in the towel. 7mm is too big, 5.5mm doesn't exist and S would take too long. I've chosen 4mm and made some purchases.

 

All I need to do now is spend another 5 months choosing the gauge.

[EasternO]

Looking ahead, the track layout would be broadly similar to that in my first post, except I could fit in one more track on the right side as seen. This would be handy for storing longer trains. I'm still a bit stuck for the area in the alcove - is this is the best use I can make of it?

[GWR-fan]

Have you considered Gn15,  representing 15" gauge.  This is largescale narrow gauge trains running on 4mm (16.5) track using G scale 1:22.5 scale trains.  This will give you the larger size that you are after. 

 

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gn15

https://narrowmindedrailworks.com/en-au/collections/gn15

https://narrowmindedrailworks.com/en-au/collections/gn15-wagons

https://narrowmindedrailworks.com/en-au/collections/gn15-figures/GN15-Figures

https://narrowmindedrailworks.com/en-au/collections/gn15-scenery/GN15-Scenery

 

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by GWR-fan
Additional information

[EasternO]

10 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

Have you considered... narrow gauge

I did, thanks, but it didn't float my boat unfortunately. There are two eras that do, however. One is Edwardian tank engines and the other is early 60s DMUs and Bo-Bo diesels. If I was going to pursue 7mm / 5.5mm / S I would have chosen the earlier era for sure as I don't mind making stuff. Now that I've chosen 4mm (definitely this time!) I may as well follow my other boat floater as pretty much everything I want is available to buy.

 

So now the test track is more of a layout.

[Harlequin]

You have a potentially very usable space for a 4mm scale model railway. You could just ignore the alcove completely if that makes a design easier because it's no longer essential to use the alcove space.

 

The question now is, are you going to go OO, EM or P4?

 

 

As you suggested, a true layout is now on the cards and so you need to think what features you really want to see, so that a more interesting design can be put together.

 

P.S. It is possible to buy some rather nice Edwardian tank engines in 4mm scale.

 

Edited March 12, 2023 by Harlequin

[Keith Addenbrooke]

On 10/03/2023 at 21:35, EasternO said:

I've thrown in the towel. 7mm is too big, 5.5mm doesn't exist and S would take too long. I've chosen 4mm and made some purchases.

 

All I need to do now is spend another 5 months choosing the gauge.

 

I'm sorry to learn your original plans didn't work out - hopefully 4mm Scale will still work OK.

 

Could I just add a small additional point of clarification for anyone reading through the thread (but not relevant for this discussion):

 

5.5mm Scale does exist, it is used by some Narrow Gauge modellers to model 3' gauge lines: the main advantage is 16.5mm Gauge (standard OO track) is perfect, there is also an endless supply of chassis and parts.  As I say, not suggesting it applies here, but just in case anyone comes across it in passing.  Hope that's OK, Keith.

[EasternO]

3 hours ago, Harlequin said:

The question now is, are you going to go OO, EM or P4?

That's the big one!

 

An idea I have is to come up with a temporary design in OO, so I can play with it for a while and change it as necessary, and then switch over to P4 when I'm happy with it. Tangibly playing and testing before committing to a permanent design really appeals to my uncertain, swing with the wind nature.

 

I've been watching a few YouTube channels on automation and something about that really appeals also, and that led me to a Minories style terminus with a loop. I'm not wedded to that idea, but it's interesting to explore.

[EasternO]

I had some time this afternoon to add in the hatch location and dimensions. As you can see, the area above the hatch needs to be looked at carefully to avoid cutting off access.

 

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by EasternO

[Harlequin]

Is that overall rectangle the true size of the baseboards at baseboard level or does the ceiling slope reduce it?

 

If it is the baseboard size, does the ceiling slope inwards and restrict the height above baseboard level along any of those edges?

 

What features do you want in your layout? Single track, double track? Stations, landscape, any particular infrastructure elements?

 

[EasternO]

Ah, very good questions and a reminder that I haven't included all the details.

 

I can comfortably stand up in there. This space is a sort of 'room' in the loft. Outside these walls are storage eves and there are two doors to access these. One is pretty much at the 178 measurement and the other is to the right of the 244 measurement. The tops of the doors are approx half the height of the loft and at this height the slope of the roof breaks into the room.

 

Therefore, the usable space would be inside these measurements to allow for the slope of the roof, and I can't lower the baseboard height without somehow accounting for the storage doors which both open into the room.