Pronunciation of railway associated words.

[Porkscratching]

26 minutes ago, pH said:

I thought it was “Lawr and Ordah”.

... Thats exactly how I say it! 😁

My Grandpa had some great old ways of speaking, bearing in mind he was literally from the Victorian era, he'd say the word Cross as "Crawss" ie rhyming with "Horse"

There's a young chap called Trevor Roper (IIRC) who does some interesting stuff on youtube about the development of the language, with much on accents and pronunciation, worth checking him out... 

[keefer]

11 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

Rapido pronuncation from 1989

I did wonder if I was the only one thinking 'Ra-ra-ra-peeeeeee-do, brlbrlbrlbbb' ☺️

(and in the words of Antoine de Caunes - 'and eef you don't like it, then why don't you just peess off!'😄)

Edited October 24, 2023 by keefer

[pH]

16 minutes ago, Porkscratching said:

... Thats exactly how I say it! 😁

You should not assume that, by quoting that pronunciation, I was approving of it! 😐

 

”Law” does not end with an ‘r’; “Order” does end with an ‘r’!

Edited October 24, 2023 by pH

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

... Joseph and Mary flew ... for a winter holiday at Sharm El-Sheikh, ...

Was Icarus there - or was that somewhere else too hot for comfort ?

[hexagon789]

1 hour ago, pH said:

I thought it was “Lawr and Ordah”.

I thought certain members of the press gave her the moniker 'Laura Norder' or am I misremembering that?

[hexagon789]

21 minutes ago, pH said:

You should not assume that, by quoting that pronunciation, I was approving of it! 😐

 

”Law” does not end with an ‘r’; “Order” does end with an ‘r’!

It's just a pronunciation, it is neither wrong nor new...

[pH]

13 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

It's just a pronunciation, it is neither wrong nor new...

I’m not sure Wralt Wrhitman would agree.

[Porkscratching]

39 minutes ago, pH said:

You should not assume that, by quoting that pronunciation, I was approving of it! 😐

 

”Law” does not end with an ‘r’; “Order” does end with an ‘r’!

No I wasn't assuming approval at all, I suspected more likely the reverse !  

Just as well things aren't always pronounced as spelt... and when you get to one word / multiple meanings you've got the basis for a large chunk of British humour.... 

[BR60103]

I find that on this side of the Atlantic, a lot of media folk pronounce Goethe as "Gertie", and Koechel becomes "Kirkle".

 

I think they have read some English pronouncing guide, written by someone who doesn't use "r" and showed "oe" (or o umlaut) as "er".  We have a bit more Scottish influence here, and R is given full value.

 

[Welchester]

7 hours ago, BR60103 said:

I find that on this side of the Atlantic, a lot of media folk pronounce Goethe as "Gertie", and Koechel becomes "Kirkle".

 

I think they have read some English pronouncing guide, written by someone who doesn't use "r" and showed "oe" (or o umlaut) as "er".  We have a bit more Scottish influence here, and R is given full value.

 

 

I knew someone who pronounced Goethe "Go-ee-thee", and a church organist who thought Beethoven was "Beeth - oven".

[The Stationmaster]

22 hours ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

I always get pirates and pilates mixed-up...

Understandable as both seem to involve some sort of exercise  although I don't think you have to walk the plank in pilates.

[CWJ]

Visitors to the K&WVR can avoid irritating or amusing the staff (depending who's on duty) by pronouncing the stations correctly:

 

Keighley = Keeth-ly

 

Ingrow = exactly as in 'ingrown toenail'

 

Damems = Dam-emms (emphasis on second syllable, as if in French)

 

Haworth = How-uth (not Hay-worth)

 

...and as for Oxenhope, just be careful not to ask your coach driver to collect you from Oxenholme at the end of your ride. It's been done.

 

Cheers,

 

Will

[Michael Hodgson]

On 24/10/2023 at 12:46, Peter Kazmierczak said:

I always get pirates and pilates mixed-up...

When I was at school they kept banging on about some bloke called Ponchus the Pirate.

 

Failed to get CSE Scripture though.

[ejstubbs]

Returning briefly to one of the questions in the OP: in the recent episode of Great Coastal Railway Journeys in which Michael Portillo visited Exeter, he clearly pronounced "clerestory" as cle-rest-ory in his voiceover to the segment in which he visited Exeter cathedral, when he was up on the roof with one of the restoration team.  I'm not saying that I regard that as firm evidence in favour of that pronunciation, I just thought I'd mention it...
 

(ISTR there was a bit of a hoo-ha on here a while back about his pronunciation of Alnmouth!)

[Wickham Green too]

Yes, I spotted 'cle-rest-ory' and cringed  -  it's clearly a clear storey !

[Oldddudders]

An acquaintance is a guide at Exeter Cathedral. Such an appointment required many months of study and an exam, despite having held the same post at Gloucester Cathedral. I wonder how he pronounces it. If we see him we'll ask. 

[The Stationmaster]

30 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Yes, I spotted 'cle-rest-ory' and cringed  -  it's clearly a clear storey !

I think it all depends on who you learnt tthe usage from.  Clear-storey seems to have been railway usage although i don't know if it was even universal in that context.  Cler-es-tory , or slight variations thereof, seem to be more common (from whatI have heard) as the architectural term.  It will be interesting to hear the ecclesiastical version if OD is successful in finding out?

[Wickham Green too]

44 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I...Cler-es-tory , or slight variations thereof, ...

Yes, you've got a choice of 'cle-res-tory' or 'cleres-try' for a start ...........  Chambers dictionary is clear that it's 'clear' - and even gives an alternative spelling of 'clearstory'. ( Other dictionaries are available )

 

Edited May 5 by Wickham Green too
clarification of clear

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

I think it all depends on who you learnt tthe usage from.  Clear-storey seems to have been railway usage although i don't know if it was even universal in that context.  Cler-es-tory , or slight variations thereof, seem to be more common (from whatI have heard) as the architectural term.  It will be interesting to hear the ecclesiastical version if OD is successful in finding out?

 

Interesting. My impression has been that it's the other way about.

 

But as you make clear here, and as I wrote upthread many moons ago, there isn't 'correct' pronunciation, just the useage of your linguistic community.

[Flying Pig]

39 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Yes, you've got a choice of 'cle-res-tory' or 'cleres-try' for a start ...........  Chambers dictionary is clear that it's 'clear' - and even gives an alternative spelling of 'clearstory'. ( Other dictionaries are available )

 

 

 

The word dates from the late Middle English period at least, as a two word phrase 'clere storey' and would originally have been pronounced something like 'clairr-e storey'.  On it's own, the word 'clere' evolved to have the modern pronunciation 'clear', but it is possible that didn't happen here.

 

If the phrase had already merged into a word pronounced like 'clerr-e-story' before the vowel in 'clere' began to change then maybe it went its own way,  A modern descendent 'cleristry' in a community where the word has been in continuous usage until today seems at least possible.

 

So on that basis 'cle-res-tory' and 'clear-story' must surely both be modern re-analyses of the written word by people unfamiliar with it, in the manner of 'Where is the aleebi?'.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Interesting. My impression has been that it's the other way about.

 

But as you make clear here, and as I wrote upthread many moons ago, there isn't 'correct' pronunciation, just the useage of your linguistic community.

Don't forget that in railway usage there was also the telegraphic code word NONCLERE referring to clerestory roofed vehicles.   I doubt that was ever pronounced as anything other than 'non-clear' (or possibly 'non-clair'?) and that would have influenced the way clerestory was pronounced.

 

Railway pronunciation definitely had wide regional (in the geographic sense) variations and that was also influenced by local dialect and, obviously, regional accents.   Allow also for the fact that exactly the same thing was referred to by different names even within different parts of a single Company or BR Regional area.  For example in my career I found myself having to adopt different local terminology for the humble 16 ton mineral wagon because using the term from one place simply produced blank looks when I moved elsewhere.

[Porcy Mane]

On 24/10/2023 at 18:26, pH said:

I thought it was “Lawr and Ordah”.

 

 I'm with Constable Knapweed on that.

 

 

[br2975]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I think it all depends on who you learnt tthe usage from.  Clear-storey seems to have been railway usage although i don't know if it was even universal in that context.  Cler-es-tory , or slight variations thereof, seem to be more common (from whatI have heard) as the architectural term.  It will be interesting to hear the ecclesiastical version if OD is successful in finding out?

.

My father was a cabinet maker and joiner and  went to great pains to explain hammer beams etc to me, and was always aghast at model railway  exhibitions when clerestory was pronounced wrongly; as he said "it is clear-storey" - the apex or ridge of the roof is raised by one storey, to allow in light hence 'clear storey'.

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, br2975 said:

.My father was a cabinet maker and joiner and  went to great pains to explain hammer beams etc to me, and was always aghast at model railway  exhibitions when clerestory was pronounced wrongly; as he said "it is clear-storey" - the apex or ridge of the roof is raised by one storey, to allow in light hence 'clear storey'.

 

Well, yes, he was used to hearing the pronunciation used in one context and unfamiliar with the pronunciation used in a different context. We had an American visitor who, for the first five minutes, pronounced 'Reading' as if it was Reading, PA, but, being a skilled linguist, very quickly changed to pronouncing it appropriately for the Berkshire context. 

[Rivercider]

Mentioned on another thread some time back was the regional variations of referring to the control office.

 

On the Western Region we always spoke of the conTROL office (my emphasis). Later when I worked with former Southern men they referred to the CONtrol.

 

cheers