Next big step for 3d printing

[stewartingram]

Scalescenes work on the policy of YOU pay once, but print as many copies you want for YOURSELF. They do (or did when I last looked) state they should not be made freely available to anyone else, or sold for commercial gain. So passing copies to your friend is NOT on.

[maridunian]

On 09/01/2023 at 19:21, FranksLad said:

Printing a 4mm scale wagon can be a 4 hour print. How does one make money on those run rates?!

 

If the average number of hours work per saleable print, including all preparation, test printing, clean up, packing and taking for posting were costed at even the living wage, then a realistic price for models could be calculated. 

 

We wouldn't expect anything made-to-order to be cheap in any other walk of life, would we? 

 

Mike 

 

[Grovenor]

 

[billbedford]

It's a long way to Kansas...

[AndyID]

3 hours ago, billbedford said:

It's a long way to Kansas...

 

There's a MiniYou in London.

[billbedford]

This is interesting, but not quite there there yet. I checked with Shapeways design features and found the minimum wall was 1mm, and the minimum embossed/engraved features 0.8 x 0.8mm.  So, 4mm coaches would come out more than a bit 'chunky'. 

[RichardT]

6 hours ago, billbedford said:

It's a long way to Kansas...

That Kansas City is in Missouri.  Still a long way mind.

 

RichardT

Edited January 12, 2023 by RichardT
edit

[bradfordbuffer]

6 hours ago, billbedford said:

It's a long way to Kansas...

Not if you 'click your heals' in red sparkling shoes

[rue_d_etropal]

On 11/01/2023 at 19:02, FranksLad said:

No difference at all, it’s still copyright theft. Someone is freely distributing something you gave to them in exchange for monetary reward. 
Years ago a commercial addon was released for Microsoft Train Simulator with some of my freeware work on it. I had never given permission for that so I sought legal advice and had the product withdrawn. This is no different. Even if you aren’t paid for it, it’s still your intellectual property. The only difference is is that you cannot see the financial impact of your stl files being passed around.

For most people doing design work they would not get anywhere. You might get lucky, but even threatening to take to court would get ignored, especially if it is someone the other side of the planet.

I think there is also an attitude similar to that in IT world where ideas(in effect coding) is shared. That is how most people learnt and improved in my time. Companies realised only alternative might be to spend a lot more money on training. It made those I worked with highly flexible as well.Much of the coding on the internet is shared, often in effect given away. This some wanting to do 3d printing expect STL files to be available free. 

 

[rue_d_etropal]

On 10/01/2023 at 01:32, AndyID said:

That would be nice, but it would only be possible if STL interpreters understood some sort of fancy watermark in the STL code. That would require an awful lot of cooperation between printer and software providers. What might motivate them to do that?

I think there will come a time when big commercial companies want to stop their own STL files being copied. Might be be a while yet. 

On 11/01/2023 at 19:02, FranksLad said:

No difference at all, it’s still copyright theft. Someone is freely distributing something you gave to them in exchange for monetary reward. 
Years ago a commercial addon was released for Microsoft Train Simulator with some of my freeware work on it. I had never given permission for that so I sought legal advice and had the product withdrawn. This is no different. Even if you aren’t paid for it, it’s still your intellectual property. The only difference is is that you cannot see the financial impact of your stl files being passed around.

For most people doing design work they would not get anywhere. You might get lucky, but even threatening to take to court would get ignored, especially if it is someone the other side of the planet.

I think there is also an attitude similar to that in IT world where ideas(in effect coding) is shared. That is how most people learnt and improved in my time. Companies realised only alternative might be to spend a lot more money on training. It made those I worked with highly flexible as well.Much of the coding on the internet is shared, often in effect given away. This some wanting to do 3d printing expect STL files to be available free. 

 

[rue_d_etropal]

On 09/01/2023 at 19:21, FranksLad said:

I design, make, and sell my own 3D printed items for 4mm scale. I’d like to partner with a company that could take the production away from my SLA and FDM printers. However Shapeways isn’t the answer. I’ve heard nothing but negative comments about the quality of the pieces people have bought. I’ve bought small items from them as a kind of “trial” and these were fine, however I’m not in the market for a £96 EMU car especially if it comes back like a banana.

As anyone who has printed resin coach or wagon bodies will testify, it’s a horrible process with sometimes unpredictable results. I guess that’s why many of the companies that offered it have gone. Printing a 4mm scale wagon can be a 4 hour print. How does one make money on those run rates?!

That has always been the case and something Chris Ward wrote about in one magazine article. His main business was I think prototype modelling, and for that you can charge a lot more and you are less concerned about print time.

On 10/01/2023 at 01:32, AndyID said:

That would be nice, but it would only be possible if STL interpreters understood some sort of fancy watermark in the STL code. That would require an awful lot of cooperation between printer and software providers. What might motivate them to do that?

I think there will come a time when big commercial companies want to stop their own STL files being copied. Might be be a while yet. 

On 11/01/2023 at 19:02, FranksLad said:

No difference at all, it’s still copyright theft. Someone is freely distributing something you gave to them in exchange for monetary reward. 
Years ago a commercial addon was released for Microsoft Train Simulator with some of my freeware work on it. I had never given permission for that so I sought legal advice and had the product withdrawn. This is no different. Even if you aren’t paid for it, it’s still your intellectual property. The only difference is is that you cannot see the financial impact of your stl files being passed around.

For most people doing design work they would not get anywhere. You might get lucky, but even threatening to take to court would get ignored, especially if it is someone the other side of the planet.

I think there is also an attitude similar to that in IT world where ideas(in effect coding) is shared. That is how most people learnt and improved in my time. Companies realised only alternative might be to spend a lot more money on training. It made those I worked with highly flexible as well.Much of the coding on the internet is shared, often in effect given away. This some wanting to do 3d printing expect STL files to be available free. 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

On 11/01/2023 at 20:05, stewartingram said:

Scalescenes work on the policy of YOU pay once, but print as many copies you want for YOURSELF. They do (or did when I last looked) state they should not be made freely available to anyone else, or sold for commercial gain. So passing copies to your friend is NOT on.

Legally correct, but ignored in the the real world.  Especially if one is in another jurisdiction.

 

If I use your product to set up in business and simply resell, that's blatant infringement of your IP rights,

What if one does work to it, adding value - such  as painting and lining it, fitting a chassis, cut and shut to make different vehicle?

Less blatant, but still against the rules.

 

And having printed one of these vehicles, run it on my layout in good faith for a couple of years, is it OK to sell it ? 

 

Enforceability is a legal minefield.

 

[John M]

This thread appears to be more about the options for the marketing and sale of 3D files as opposed to the next big step in 3D printing in particular small volume manufacture.

 

I trailed the production and sale of 3D printed rtr & CKD wagons using contract printers for 15 months and had to cease accepting orders because of difficulty experienced/high costs incurred by my contractor in printing small scale railway models using the SLA printing process. https://jmdesignmodelrailways.com/

 

My main interest is in models of Irish prototype and the main motivation for trailing 3D printing rtr wagons was the very low level of demand experienced over 10 years manufacturing etched kits of Irish locos and rolling stock and the growing demand for rtr models.

 

The main challenge was in finding a printing bureau/contract manufacturer that was capable and willing to undertake the low-volume (10-100) manufacture of SLA printed 4mm scale wagons.

I sent out enquiries to approximately 10 locally based (New Zealand) bureau of which 4 were willing to quote 2  of which at a realistic price.

 

I was fortunate to find a printer who was willing to print the prototype models and recommend a freelance designer, our initial model took approximately 6 months to develop from initial concept to production printing stage. The intention was to produce a 3D printed model to a similar standard to the current generation of plastic injection molded models, though using 'design clever" techniques to minimise assembly costs.  My prototype printer was initially unwilling to carry out production printing due to the high failure rate and support removal/clean up costs experienced in printing 'small scale models", his bread and butter business was rapid prototyping in connection with manufacturing industry and printing props in connection with the film industry.

 

The prints produced were of a high quality in a resilient resin with similar characteristics to injection molded plastic, allowing fine detail, relative thin wall thickness and sufficient resilience for running/break gear.

 

I initially tried a Chinese printer who came highly recommended for production printing. Although the test prints (4 complete wagons) were to a high quality our printer ran into serious problems with a high (50%) reject rate (breakages & distortion) on our first production run of 100 wagons. While our Chinese printer made considerable effort printing additional prints FOC to rectify the problem it quickly became clear that we would need to find another printer, both because of print quality and more importantly the resin used by our Chinese printer although to a similar spec. did not have similar resilient qualities to the resin used in our locally manufactured prototypes.

 

At this stage our locally based printer agreed to print our models in small batches (10-20 month), possibly to boost turnover as one of his larger customers had dropped out possibly as a result of Covid disruption. This allowed the business to continue in operation selling existing/developing new models while considering the option of taking printing in-house/finding an alternative supplier.

 

Taking printing in-house proved a non-runner, I struggled to source suitable resilient resin/achieve acceptable print quality with a desktop printer, a fullsize "bottom-up" machine similar to that used for my successful production prints was prohibitively expensive for a business producing small volumes of small scale models.

 

In the end my printer may have dropped out because the hassle of printing small scale models may not have been worth while, especially when demand for prints from manufacturing and the film industry has recovered.

 

The 3D print industry has changed considerably since I first considered 3D printing in Apl 2021, many of the small local 3D print bureau have dropped out replaced by international platforms such as Treatstock https://www.treatstock.com/.

 

Currently I am trialing prints from a supplier in South Asia quality so far and price has been reasonable, prints ordered from a local printer through Treatstock although reasonably priced appear to have been printed on a desktop "top down" home printer and are not to an acceptable standard for a commercial model, I have also experienced similar quality problems with prints at quite a higher price from a locally based 'specialist" industrial 3D printing business .

 

I suppose in the end it should not be forgotten that 3D printing was developed as a rapid prototyping process and majority of the available resins are brittle and largely unsuitable for producing detail that may break off or durable running gear.

 

 

[FranksLad]

5 hours ago, billbedford said:

This is interesting, but not quite there there yet. I checked with Shapeways design features and found the minimum wall was 1mm, and the minimum embossed/engraved features 0.8 x 0.8mm.  So, 4mm coaches would come out more than a bit 'chunky'. 

Correct Bill. I uploaded a 1970s bus shelter to Shapeways that I’ve printed both FDM and SLA without issues. Rejected by Shapeways due to a part being too thin.

[FranksLad]

14 hours ago, maridunian said:

 

If the average number of hours work per saleable print, including all preparation, test printing, clean up, packing and taking for posting were costed at even the living wage, then a realistic price for models could be calculated. 

 

We wouldn't expect anything made-to-order to be cheap in any other walk of life, would we? 

 

Mike 

 

Very true. I’ve just completed an EMU in 4mm scale using hybrid printing and other digital techniques. I’ve had enquiries to release it as a kit as no alternative is available. However for me to produce would take around 35 hours per kit. Not really viable hence not many are doing that sort of thing.

[FranksLad]

3 hours ago, John M said:

This thread appears to be more about the options for the marketing and sale of 3D files as opposed to the next big step in 3D printing in particular small volume manufacture.

 

I trailed the production and sale of 3D printed rtr & CKD wagons using contract printers for 15 months and had to cease accepting orders because of difficulty experienced/high costs incurred by my contractor in printing small scale railway models using the SLA printing process. https://jmdesignmodelrailways.com/

 

My main interest is in models of Irish prototype and the main motivation for trailing 3D printing rtr wagons was the very low level of demand experienced over 10 years manufacturing etched kits of Irish locos and rolling stock and the growing demand for rtr models.

 

The main challenge was in finding a printing bureau/contract manufacturer that was capable and willing to undertake the low-volume (10-100) manufacture of SLA printed 4mm scale wagons.

I sent out enquiries to approximately 10 locally based (New Zealand) bureau of which 4 were willing to quote 2  of which at a realistic price.

 

I was fortunate to find a printer who was willing to print the prototype models and recommend a freelance designer, our initial model took approximately 6 months to develop from initial concept to production printing stage. The intention was to produce a 3D printed model to a similar standard to the current generation of plastic injection molded models, though using 'design clever" techniques to minimise assembly costs.  My prototype printer was initially unwilling to carry out production printing due to the high failure rate and support removal/clean up costs experienced in printing 'small scale models", his bread and butter business was rapid prototyping in connection with manufacturing industry and printing props in connection with the film industry.

 

The prints produced were of a high quality in a resilient resin with similar characteristics to injection molded plastic, allowing fine detail, relative thin wall thickness and sufficient resilience for running/break gear.

 

I initially tried a Chinese printer who came highly recommended for production printing. Although the test prints (4 complete wagons) were to a high quality our printer ran into serious problems with a high (50%) reject rate (breakages & distortion) on our first production run of 100 wagons. While our Chinese printer made considerable effort printing additional prints FOC to rectify the problem it quickly became clear that we would need to find another printer, both because of print quality and more importantly the resin used by our Chinese printer although to a similar spec. did not have similar resilient qualities to the resin used in our locally manufactured prototypes.

 

At this stage our locally based printer agreed to print our models in small batches (10-20 month), possibly to boost turnover as one of his larger customers had dropped out possibly as a result of Covid disruption. This allowed the business to continue in operation selling existing/developing new models while considering the option of taking printing in-house/finding an alternative supplier.

 

Taking printing in-house proved a non-runner, I struggled to source suitable resilient resin/achieve acceptable print quality with a desktop printer, a fullsize "bottom-up" machine similar to that used for my successful production prints was prohibitively expensive for a business producing small volumes of small scale models.

 

In the end my printer may have dropped out because the hassle of printing small scale models may not have been worth while, especially when demand for prints from manufacturing and the film industry has recovered.

 

The 3D print industry has changed considerably since I first considered 3D printing in Apl 2021, many of the small local 3D print bureau have dropped out replaced by international platforms such as Treatstock https://www.treatstock.com/.

 

Currently I am trialing prints from a supplier in South Asia quality so far and price has been reasonable, prints ordered from a local printer through Treatstock although reasonably priced appear to have been printed on a desktop "top down" home printer and are not to an acceptable standard for a commercial model, I have also experienced similar quality problems with prints at quite a higher price from a locally based 'specialist" industrial 3D printing business .

 

I suppose in the end it should not be forgotten that 3D printing was developed as a rapid prototyping process and majority of the available resins are brittle and largely unsuitable for producing detail that may break off or durable running gear.

 

 

There’s the rub. With all of the hype surrounding resin printing, people spend £200 on an Elegoo Mars and believe they’re going to be banging out Bachmann quality coach bodies left right and centre. They aren’t. SLA is a wet process, if you get a straight print you’ve done well and if you get two the same size it’s time to buy a lottery ticket. FDM is a better option for making straight and square items but the detail just isn’t there and the level of post print finishing required would make a resin purist’s hair fall out.

For now, hybrid is the way to go. FDM for go, SLA for show. The skill is in how you break a model down to get the best result from each discipline. I’m getting there but it’s taken almost three years.

[maridunian]

9 hours ago, FranksLad said:

Correct Bill. I uploaded a 1970s bus shelter to Shapeways that I’ve printed both FDM and SLA without issues. Rejected by Shapeways due to a part being too thin.

 

I think most people have come across this. They offer a 'Print it Anyway' option if you're ordering for yourself, which overrides some of their checking. They won't offer that in their marketplace because they want at least an 80% success rate, not just printing, but also handling, cleaning, packing etc without mechanical breakages.

 

9 hours ago, FranksLad said:

There’s the rub. With all of the hype surrounding resin printing, people spend £200 on an Elegoo Mars and believe they’re going to be banging out Bachmann quality coach bodies left right and centre. They aren’t. SLA is a wet process, if you get a straight print you’ve done well and if you get two the same size it’s time to buy a lottery ticket. FDM is a better option for making straight and square items but the detail just isn’t there and the level of post print finishing required would make a resin purist’s hair fall out.

For now, hybrid is the way to go. FDM for go, SLA for show. The skill is in how you break a model down to get the best result from each discipline. I’m getting there but it’s taken almost three years.

 

I mostly model in N Gauge where printing a one-piece bodyshell and chassis using Shapeways Smooth Fine Detail Plastic produces something mechanically strong enough for most situations. Scaling up to 2.5/3/4mm scales escalates costs (which are volume dependent, eg 8x for OO compared to N) but also produces mechanical challenges such as printing droop or shrinkage bending (which need redesigning out) and unacceptable fragility on a busy layout. Using different materials for separate parts is the obvious answer, for example their Versatile Plastic (nylon) for a chassis and Fine Detail Plastics for details or facings. Vulnerable parts like buffers are best added in brass.

 

The elegance of all-in-one 3D printing is very seductive, but if your goal is producing a model unavailable RTR, then being open to mixing and matching materials and technologies (as in RTR models!) is the way to go.

 

Mike

[Enterprisingwestern]

On 25/11/2022 at 20:53, 55020 said:

I must confess I'm in a different space.  I have my own SLA printer, so have no desire to pay the extortionate prices that Shapeways are asking.  I am happy to spend time and gain some satisfaction from creating my own STLs (designs).  I am also happy to share those STLs for free if others were happy to share their designs in a similar manner.  I do what I do for pleasure, not for profit.

 

On 12/12/2022 at 16:20, Nyeti said:

A little late to the discussion but I thought I'd add my tuppence.

 

I'd certainly be interested as a customer.  I own a 3D printer myself and while I do some of my own CAD, I'd prefer to pay a designer directly for the use of one of their STLs rather than pay the rather steep fees for Shapeways or similar to print it for me.

I've bought STLs in the past for wargaming and been satisfied.  For railway models I'd do the same; I'll admit that many of the Rue d'Étropal range are tempting but would be more so if I could print at home.

 

Just to add my personal situation.

I have no computer literacy skills and hence zero ability to even think about designing my own kits and bits.

I have nonetheless bought a resin printer and related accessories, which resides in the UK with my son, who does have the requisite skills, but not really any spare time away from earning a living to do anything much about modelling trinkets.

So it would seem initially that I'm going down a blind alley, but, thanks to people like Jonny Duffet who make 3d drawings of wagons etc that I am interested in available foc, my son can hopefully find enough time to do the requisite amount of work to enable a print to materialise, which is considerably less than drawing up from scratch.

Another advantage is that of cost, even with the initial outlay of the machinery, once I've printed about 20 of Jonny's models off I'm at a comparable price point to that which rtr wagons are sold for, so for me, it's a win win situation.

Whilst it wouldn't necessarily do for everybody, I'd be in the market to shop at someone's design store and buy files to print off.

 

Mike.

[animotion]

I use to use Shapeways in the past before I got my 3d printer of which I have three now. I think Shapeways can be a bit misleading when it comes to displaying their models which are usually in rendered form which always looks better than the actual printed product. I have produced items for a colleague who produces a range of Cambrian loco and coach kits as masters or items that go with the kits. The stl files are always worth much more than the printed items and are worth hanging on to unless someone is willing to pay for them. For the masters I printed out I probable spent two years fine tuning them until the client was happy with the final outcome which you don't get from Shapeways. There can also be a lot of post production involved on the printed items to get them to a injection moulded quality which the client can be left to do or you do yourself. There is only one company I know that can produce close to injection moulded quality prints and that is EnvisionTEC. There largest printer for example for printing a 4mm coach would set you back over £100,000 and then there is their resin which you would have to use which isn't cheap. You could justify charging a lot of money for a 4mm coach but I doubt if you would ever get your money back printing for railway modellers. Shapeways may have had a monopoly in the 3D printing market but are slowly loosing ground to freelancers who can offer a better service at a cheaper price.

[FranksLad]

This is CAD drawn and then printed hybrid FDM and SLA with laser cut parts and proprietary bogies. It’s a real “bitsa”, but necessary to achieve a model that is well detailed and straight.

[bradfordbuffer]

4 hours ago, FranksLad said:

This is CAD drawn and then printed hybrid FDM and SLA with laser cut parts and proprietary bogies. It’s a real “bitsa”, but necessary to achieve a model that is well detailed and straight.

Cracking model any picks of CAD and construction? 

[FranksLad]

21 minutes ago, bradfordbuffer said:

Cracking model any picks of CAD and construction? 

 

[bradfordbuffer]

2 hours ago, FranksLad said:

 

Very clever the bogies look brill and underframe hiding dcc chip ...well done

[FranksLad]

1 hour ago, bradfordbuffer said:

Very clever the bogies look brill and underframe hiding dcc chip ...well done

The bogies are nicked from a Lima 156, just dressed with steps, shoebeams and cables. This one is a dummy model for my friend’s RTC exhibition layout.

Ill be doing a powered 2PEP and 4PEP for my own. The 4PEP will be as built so will need bogies drawing up.

Edited January 14, 2023 by FranksLad

[FranksLad]

1 hour ago, bradfordbuffer said:

Very clever the bogies look brill and underframe hiding dcc chip ...well done

This is her lit up. Before final details such as horns, handrails and wipers were added.

Edited January 14, 2023 by FranksLad